[ale] LAMP vs Node/Flask/RoR etc

[leam hall]

Not bashing anyone's web thingy of choice but am trying to understand
something.

We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each thing
separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and Flask
function as both web server and page generation systems.

Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse, than
Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Leam

[Solomon Peachy]

Post by leam hall
We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each thing
separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and Flask
function as both web server and page generation systems.
Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse, than
Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Look at it as a matter of integration. With Node etc, you don't have to
worry about configuring multiple, separate components to work together.
Also, consider that multiple services on a single system is now the
exception, whereas it used to be the norm.

I personally hold a rather dim view of Node etc, not because there's
anything inherently wrong with them, but rather that their package
management ecosystems are rather immature, leading to every deployment
being an independently special snowflake [1] rather than something
that's easily recreatable and supportable after the fact. Thanks in
part to the 'leftpad' fiasco, proper attention is finally being paid to
this.

(On the other hand, there's a considerable advantage to your server and
client code being written in the same language, using the same
libraries..)

[1] https://martinfowler.com/bliki/SnowflakeServer.html

- Solomon

[Jeff Hubbs]

I had to Google "leftpad" to know what you were referring to. That
situation makes me shudder. My intuition that leads me to avoid
dependency structures like that didn't get that way for no reason.

I remember that at A Former Employer (tm) our developers (perhaps
long-gone contractors as far as anyone knew) wrote a Java web app for
production that brought in a library from some arbitrary software
company - as in, *downloaded* it via URL - at *runtime*. This not only
gave the developer the power to break or alter our app however and
whenever they wanted, we were a DNS hack away from having the app be
hijacked altogether by persons unknown. The app was company-captive at
least, but its platform could still reach out to real Internet.

Post by Solomon Peachy

Post by leam hall
We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each thing
separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and Flask
function as both web server and page generation systems.
Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse, than
Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Look at it as a matter of integration. With Node etc, you don't have to
worry about configuring multiple, separate components to work together.
Also, consider that multiple services on a single system is now the
exception, whereas it used to be the norm.
I personally hold a rather dim view of Node etc, not because there's
anything inherently wrong with them, but rather that their package
management ecosystems are rather immature, leading to every deployment
being an independently special snowflake [1] rather than something
that's easily recreatable and supportable after the fact. Thanks in
part to the 'leftpad' fiasco, proper attention is finally being paid to
this.
(On the other hand, there's a considerable advantage to your server and
client code being written in the same language, using the same
libraries..)
[1] https://martinfowler.com/bliki/SnowflakeServer.html
- Solomon
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[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 10:23:08 -0400

Post by Solomon Peachy

Post by leam hall
We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each
thing separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and
Flask function as both web server and page generation systems.
Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or
worse, than Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Look at it as a matter of integration. With Node etc, you don't have
to worry about configuring multiple, separate components to work
together. Also, consider that multiple services on a single system is
now the exception, whereas it used to be the norm.

I prefer Flask to the old [Perl|Python]/MySQL stuff for doing a quick
and dirty. They throw in an already configured server, and stuff just
kinda works. I wouldn't advise Flask for an artiste` wanting the most
visually expressive web presense.

I'd like Node a lot, except the use of callbacks to facilitate async
efficiency without threads or extra procecesses makes me feel like I'm
turning a garden hose inside out.

This is unhip to say, and everyone hates me when I say it, but I like
MongoDB. With MongoDB, if you can think it you can do it, without
relationalizing the world. Of course, with great power comes great
responsibility (not to do anything stupid).


SteveT

Steve Litt
October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 16:59:37 -0400

Post by Steve Litt
I prefer Flask to the old [Perl|Python]/MySQL stuff for doing a quick
and dirty. They throw in an already configured server, and stuff just
kinda works. I wouldn't advise Flask for an artiste` wanting the most
visually expressive web presense.

s/flask/bottle/

I've never used flask.

SteveT

Steve Litt
October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[Jim Kinney]

I have a flask. Use it mostly for camping. I mostly pour from a bottle into a glass so I guess I use containers pretty often. They all leak, though. Eventually the ale gets lost through hole at the top. I have a few lamps, too. One has a special color correct bulb. I use it at my leather table. So I also Role Rawhide (RoR). The nodes in my throat swell up when I get sick but mostly they work ok.

Post by Steve Litt
On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 16:59:37 -0400

Post by Steve Litt
I prefer Flask to the old [Perl|Python]/MySQL stuff for doing a quick
and dirty. They throw in an already configured server, and stuff just
kinda works. I wouldn't advise Flask for an artiste` wanting the most
visually expressive web presense.

s/flask/bottle/
I've never used flask.
SteveT
Steve Litt
October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[Joey Kelly]

Post by Jim Kinney
I have a flask. Use it mostly for camping. I mostly pour from a bottle into a glass so I guess I use containers pretty often. They all leak, though. Eventually the ale gets lost through hole at the top. I have a few lamps, too. One has a special color correct bulb. I use it at my leather table. So I also Role Rawhide (RoR). The nodes in my throat swell up when I get sick but mostly they work ok.

"Jim Kinney"++
--
Joey Kelly
Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant
http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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[DJ-Pfulio]

Post by Jim Kinney
I have a flask. Use it mostly for camping. I mostly pour from a bottle into a glass so I guess I use containers pretty often. They all leak, though. Eventually the ale gets lost through hole at the top. I have a few lamps, too. One has a special color correct bulb. I use it at my leather table. So I also Role Rawhide (RoR). The nodes in my throat swell up when I get sick but mostly they work ok.

I have a flask too. Use it at conferences and occasionally at locations where
I'm speaking. It is Kevlar and doesn't leak - or set off metal detectors. ;)
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[Jonathan Meek]

I am in the process now of locking down a web application after finding it
was pulling stuff directly from the Internet instead of using internally
hosted repositories. Modern Web development can be a bit scary for someone
who has spent most of their limited career doing Java backend development
with build tools have been around for some time.

I stuck with a koozie for now because I haven't earned my flask. I have
only been in the IT/Software Development space for 11 years.

Post by Jim Kinney

Post by Jim Kinney
I have a flask. Use it mostly for camping. I mostly pour from a bottle

into a glass so I guess I use containers pretty often. They all leak,
though. Eventually the ale gets lost through hole at the top. I have a few
lamps, too. One has a special color correct bulb. I use it at my leather
table. So I also Role Rawhide (RoR). The nodes in my throat swell up when I
get sick but mostly they work ok.
I have a flask too. Use it at conferences and occasionally at locations where
I'm speaking. It is Kevlar and doesn't leak - or set off metal detectors. ;)
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[Leam Hall]

Post by Steve Litt
This is unhip to say, and everyone hates me when I say it, but I like
MongoDB. With MongoDB, if you can think it you can do it, without
relationalizing the world. Of course, with great power comes great
responsibility (not to do anything stupid).

"Why unhip?" asked the guy in a MongoDB class using PyMongo and Bottle.

The class is pushing me to at least try Bottle and that's what raised
the question. I have some other projects I want to work on and will need
a web interface. Thus relearn PHP/MariaDB on a shared host or get some
small thing for MongoDB and either Python/Flask/Bottle or Golang/Buffalo
or somesuch.
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[DJ-Pfulio]

Post by leam hall
Not bashing anyone's web thingy of choice but am trying to understand
something.
We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each
thing separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and
Flask function as both web server and page generation systems.
Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse,
than Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Who is "we"? Lots of people never liked LAMP.
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[Chuck Payne]

JD,

I like LAMP. I still do a lot in PHP, I have replaced Apache with Nginx,
but I still host my own LNMP server, until my dying breathe or until Uncle
Sam outlaws computer in the homes.

Post by DJ-Pfulio

Post by leam hall
Not bashing anyone's web thingy of choice but am trying to understand
something.
We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each
thing separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and
Flask function as both web server and page generation systems.
Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse,
than Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Who is "we"? Lots of people never liked LAMP.
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[DJ-Pfulio]

JD, 
I like LAMP. I still do a lot in PHP, I have replaced Apache with Nginx, but I
still host my own LNMP server, until my dying breathe or until Uncle Sam outlaws
computer in the homes.  

That is called LEMP. 'E' is for EngineX - the way that 'nginx' is pronounced.
I always assumed the 'P' was for Perl/Python Pfun!

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[Jim Kinney]

Post by DJ-Pfulio

Post by leam hall
Not bashing anyone's web thingy of choice but am trying to
understand
something.
We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each
thing separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and
Flask function as both web server and page generation systems.
Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse,
than Apache/Nginz and PHP?

Who is "we"? Lots of people never liked LAMP.

Ha! JD ran his personal website using PHP on Win2k server for _years_!
<runs and hides>
(I think JD would rather have his eyelids riveted to his tongue and
nose than use php on any platform and certainly with any windows
version being dead last after hand typing return code on a Mac II
surrounded by cattle prods with his feet in a bucket of scorpions. I
may be exaggerating a bit but not by much.)
Seriously, LAMP was just another buzzword. It was a certainly common
tool chain but most certainly not the only game in town. It was popular
since it was easy to get started with. It was also easy to break and
typically was run by people who had little to no knowledge of, or
interest in, security of data, transactions, web servers, etc...
There were always other combos - I refuse to use MySQL and have done
well with PostgreSQL for 20+ years. Perl was my first web scripting
language. Other use Python. Even bash. The two parts that were always
there for years were Linux and Apache. Ngnx has moved up.

Post by DJ-Pfulio
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[Lightner, Jeffrey]

LAMP-REY = LAMP Readily Exploitable, Yes?. :-)


From: Ale [mailto:ale-***@ale.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kinney
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 11:32 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] LAMP vs Node/Flask/RoR etc

On Wed, 2017-11-01 at 10:57 -0400, DJ-Pfulio wrote:

On 11/01/2017 10:05 AM, leam hall wrote:



Not bashing anyone's web thingy of choice but am trying to understand

something.



We used to swear by the LAMP stack; Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. Each

thing separate but working together. Now things like Node, RoR, and

Flask function as both web server and page generation systems.



Besides "one language", are the new things that much better, or worse,

than Apache/Nginz and PHP?







Who is "we"? Lots of people never liked LAMP.

Ha! JD ran his personal website using PHP on Win2k server for _years_!

<runs and hides>

(I think JD would rather have his eyelids riveted to his tongue and nose than use php on any platform and certainly with any windows version being dead last after hand typing return code on a Mac II surrounded by cattle prods with his feet in a bucket of scorpions. I may be exaggerating a bit but not by much.)

Seriously, LAMP was just another buzzword. It was a certainly common tool chain but most certainly not the only game in town. It was popular since it was easy to get started with. It was also easy to break and typically was run by people who had little to no knowledge of, or interest in, security of data, transactions, web servers, etc...

There were always other combos - I refuse to use MySQL and have done well with PostgreSQL for 20+ years. Perl was my first web scripting language. Other use Python. Even bash. The two parts that were always there for years were Linux and Apache. Ngnx has moved up.

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