[ale] New user introduction

[Simba via Ale]

Greetings!

I recently moved nearer to Atlanta from Athens (and before that, to
Georgia from way up north). I recently rid myself of Windows completely.
I have been using Linux since Slackware 3 as a hobby, and since Wheezy
in a more focused way. I work as a freelance technology consultant,
primarily serving small and medium businesses, and non-profit organizations.

While I was growing up I dabbled in hacking and phreaking, the latter
being the most interesting to me at the time, but I'm all white-hat now.
I have strong opinions which I'm happy to fiercely defend, and little
tolerance for know-it-all newbies. I am happy to share my experience and
knowledge, however.

My favorite distribution is Debian, my favorite WM is Openbox, and I
prefer gnome to kde.. but I prefer lightweight apps to monolithic
desktop environments. My favorite brand name machine are Thinkpads, and
I just recently picked up an X1 Carbon (which is _amazing_). I'm also
fond of Toughbooks because sometimes you just need to throw your machine
down a flight of stairs. I agree with almost everything that Mr.
Stallman has published, and I usually agree with Mr. Torvalds as well,
when I can grasp what he's talking about (which is not often).

I'll probably be spotted in the freenode channel. Looking forward to
meeting other linux users.

[Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale]

Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim, nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init. :p

Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down here on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes still especially when it comes to systemd.

Welcome aboard.


-----Original Message-----
From: Ale [mailto:ale-***@ale.org] On Behalf Of Simba via Ale
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:26 AM
To: ***@ale.org
Subject: [ale] New user introduction

Greetings!

I recently moved nearer to Atlanta from Athens (and before that, to Georgia from way up north). I recently rid myself of Windows completely.
I have been using Linux since Slackware 3 as a hobby, and since Wheezy in a more focused way. I work as a freelance technology consultant, primarily serving small and medium businesses, and non-profit organizations.

While I was growing up I dabbled in hacking and phreaking, the latter being the most interesting to me at the time, but I'm all white-hat now.
I have strong opinions which I'm happy to fiercely defend, and little tolerance for know-it-all newbies. I am happy to share my experience and knowledge, however.

My favorite distribution is Debian, my favorite WM is Openbox, and I prefer gnome to kde.. but I prefer lightweight apps to monolithic desktop environments. My favorite brand name machine are Thinkpads, and I just recently picked up an X1 Carbon (which is _amazing_). I'm also fond of Toughbooks because sometimes you just need to throw your machine down a flight of stairs. I agree with almost everything that Mr.
Stallman has published, and I usually agree with Mr. Torvalds as well, when I can grasp what he's talking about (which is not often).

I'll probably be spotted in the freenode channel. Looking forward to meeting other linux users.

--
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"


_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Simba via Ale]

I like systemd. I hated writing init scripts. I know it's not as simple
as that, but so far I haven't been burned.

And I use sublime text, but if I have to edit in a terminal I use nano.
vim is cool, but it only makes sense if you're a disciplined home-row
typist, which I am not (self-taught).

Also I have difficulty following orders. Too rebellious :)

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim, nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init. :p
Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down here on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes still especially when it comes to systemd.
Welcome aboard.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:26 AM
Subject: [ale] New user introduction
Greetings!
I recently moved nearer to Atlanta from Athens (and before that, to Georgia from way up north). I recently rid myself of Windows completely.
I have been using Linux since Slackware 3 as a hobby, and since Wheezy in a more focused way. I work as a freelance technology consultant, primarily serving small and medium businesses, and non-profit organizations.
While I was growing up I dabbled in hacking and phreaking, the latter being the most interesting to me at the time, but I'm all white-hat now.
I have strong opinions which I'm happy to fiercely defend, and little tolerance for know-it-all newbies. I am happy to share my experience and knowledge, however.
My favorite distribution is Debian, my favorite WM is Openbox, and I prefer gnome to kde.. but I prefer lightweight apps to monolithic desktop environments. My favorite brand name machine are Thinkpads, and I just recently picked up an X1 Carbon (which is _amazing_). I'm also fond of Toughbooks because sometimes you just need to throw your machine down a flight of stairs. I agree with almost everything that Mr.
Stallman has published, and I usually agree with Mr. Torvalds as well, when I can grasp what he's talking about (which is not often).
I'll probably be spotted in the freenode channel. Looking forward to meeting other linux users.
--
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Phil Turmel via Ale]

Post by Simba via Ale
I like systemd. I hated writing init scripts. I know it's not as simple
as that, but so far I haven't been burned.
And I use sublime text, but if I have to edit in a terminal I use nano.
vim is cool, but it only makes sense if you're a disciplined home-row
typist, which I am not (self-taught).
Also I have difficulty following orders. Too rebellious :)
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim, nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init. :p
Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down here on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes still especially when it comes to systemd.
Welcome aboard.

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:55:37 -0400

Post by Simba via Ale
I like systemd. I hated writing init scripts. I know it's not as
simple as that, but so far I haven't been burned.

There are other alternatives besides systemd and sysvinit (the one
with /etc/inittab and huge init scripts). These alternatives are IMHO
vastly superior to systemd and sysvinit. Check out runit and s6 (plus
s6-rc) for starters:

http://smarden.org/runit/

https://skarnet.org/software/s6/

I use runit, including to manage home-grown daemons, and it works
consistently and beautifully. Here's my runit run script for the
ntpd time daemon:

===========================
#!/bin/sh
[ -r conf ] && . ./conf
exec ntpd -d ${OPTS:=-s} 2>&1
===========================

In the preceding, on my machine, there's no conf file, so the middle
line is scaffolding that in my case could be deleted.

And here's my run script for a logging facility for ntpd:

===========================
#!/bin/sh
exec logger -t openntpd -p daemon.notice
===========================

In the preceding, -t just tags every log line with "openntpd", and the
-p indicates a port number that I guess has the alias "daemon.notice".

Compare these to the suggested init scripts for ntpd, and you get the
idea how much simpler runit is.

I performed a wc command on the entirety of runit source code tree,
like this:

find runit-2.1.2 -exec cat {} + | wc -l

The preceding counts documentation lines, lines out of binary files,
distro specific stuff, and everything else, most of which doesn't end
up in your executable. And yet the preceding command resolves to 33162,
approximately 34 times less than the 1 million plus lines of code in
systemd.
(https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?px=systemd-2017-Git-Activity&page=news_item)

Moving from sysvinit to systemd because you don't like long init
scripts is like moving from Atlanta to Antarctica because you don't
like extreme automobile traffic. In both cases, there are less radical
ways to achieve your goal.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Solomon Peachy via Ale]

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim,
nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init. :p
Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down here
on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes still
especially when it comes to systemd.

Huh. Now I can't help but wonder how long it will be before systemd
integrates some sort of text editor.

...and what keybindings it will use.

- Solomon [ducks and runs]

[Beddingfield, Allen via Ale]

Ha! I'm sure if they do, it will only save in a binary file, and it
will have a separate utility to output the file to text..

Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim,
nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init. :p
Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down here
on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes still
especially when it comes to systemd.

Huh. Now I can't help but wonder how long it will be before systemd
integrates some sort of text editor.
...and what keybindings it will use.
- Solomon [ducks and runs]
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama
Office 205-348-2251
***@ua.edu
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Phil Turmel via Ale]

Ooooo! Steeeeriiiike! Straight down the pipe!

Ha!  I'm sure if they do, it will only save in a binary file, and it
will have a separate utility to output the file to text..

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim,
nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init.  :p
Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down here
on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes still
especially when it comes to systemd.

Huh.  Now I can't help but wonder how long it will be before systemd
integrates some sort of text editor.
...and what keybindings it will use.
  - Solomon [ducks and runs]

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.o

[Jim Kinney via Ale]

It won't output a text file! It will only display parsed text related to your query.

It's really a database with a query language all designed for more efficient use by a 13ZHz AI.

Post by Phil Turmel via Ale
Ooooo! Steeeeriiiike! Straight down the pipe!

Ha!  I'm sure if they do, it will only save in a binary file, and it
will have a separate utility to output the file to text..

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Yeah but you didn't tell us which is the BEST editor to use (vim,
nano, emacs) OR whether systemd is better or worse than init.  :p
Just kidding - do NOT tell us - the flame wars have quieted down

here

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
on those subjects although there are sometimes border skirmishes

still

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
especially when it comes to systemd.

Huh.  Now I can't help but wonder how long it will be before systemd
integrates some sort of text editor.
...and what keybindings it will use.
  - Solomon [ducks and runs]

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 15:47:33 +0000

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
OR whether systemd is better or worse than init.

The preceding question is like "Are wolves better or worse than
mammals?".

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale]

Not really. On your systemd server type "ps -ef |grep init" and show us your "init" process.

Wolves are a subset of mammals. Systemd is NOT a subset of init (or sysvinit) - it is a replacement. It does run as PID 1 like init did previously but that doesn't make it the same thing:
root 1 0 0 Aug09 ? 00:01:49 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd --switched-root --system --deserialize 21

I'm sure most people here understood the humor intended in my post. Why be pedantic?

-----Original Message-----
From: Ale [mailto:ale-***@ale.org] On Behalf Of Steve Litt via Ale
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:30 PM
To: ***@ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] New user introduction

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 15:47:33 +0000

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
OR whether systemd is better or worse than init.

The preceding question is like "Are wolves better or worse than mammals?".

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:23:55 +0000

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Not really. On your systemd server type "ps -ef |grep init" and show
us your "init" process.
Wolves are a subset of mammals. Systemd is NOT a subset of init

Yes it is. There are many init systems.

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
(or
sysvinit)

Another subset of init.


[snip]

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
I'm sure most people here understood the humor intended in my post.
Why be pedantic?

Because calling sysvinit "init" implies a false choice between systemd
and sysvinit. This false choice is one of that fallacies used to sell
systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Simba via Ale]

These endless arguments and debates are why I decided to stop worrying
and love systemd.


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:23:55 +0000

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Not really. On your systemd server type "ps -ef |grep init" and show
us your "init" process.
Wolves are a subset of mammals. Systemd is NOT a subset of init

Yes it is. There are many init systems.

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
(or
sysvinit)

Another subset of init.
[snip]

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
I'm sure most people here understood the humor intended in my post.
Why be pedantic?

Because calling sysvinit "init" implies a false choice between systemd
and sysvinit. This false choice is one of that fallacies used to sell
systemd.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:53:54 -0400

Post by Simba via Ale
These endless arguments and debates are why I decided to stop worrying
and love systemd.

That's certainly your choice.

If you ever want to know more about what others are talking about,
throw up a Qemu VM, install Void Linux, which comes with the runit
init system, and see what Linux is like when initted with runit.


SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Jeff Hubbs via Ale]

Or, you can install Gentoo Linux and switch among OpenRC, systemd,
Epoch, and runit at will; OpenRC is the default. Apparently there is
overlay support for upstart.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:53:54 -0400

Post by Simba via Ale
These endless arguments and debates are why I decided to stop worrying
and love systemd.

That's certainly your choice.
If you ever want to know more about what others are talking about,
throw up a Qemu VM, install Void Linux, which comes with the runit
init system, and see what Linux is like when initted with runit.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Simba via Ale]

Is Gentoo linux another name for Debian? Because otherwise no. :)


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"

Post by Jeff Hubbs via Ale
Or, you can install Gentoo Linux and switch among OpenRC, systemd,
Epoch, and runit at will; OpenRC is the default. Apparently there is
overlay support for upstart.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:53:54 -0400

Post by Simba via Ale
These endless arguments and debates are why I decided to stop worrying
and love systemd.

That's certainly your choice.
If you ever want to know more about what others are talking about,
throw up a Qemu VM, install Void Linux, which comes with the runit
init system, and see what Linux is like when initted with runit.
  SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[James Taylor via Ale]

Or you could just use the stuff to get things done and not worry about it.
-jt


James Taylor
678-697-9420
Or, you can install Gentoo Linux and switch among OpenRC, systemd,
Epoch, and runit at will; OpenRC is the default. Apparently there is
overlay support for upstart.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:53:54 -0400

Post by Simba via Ale
These endless arguments and debates are why I decided to stop worrying
and love systemd.

That's certainly your choice.
If you ever want to know more about what others are talking about,
throw up a Qemu VM, install Void Linux, which comes with the runit
init system, and see what Linux is like when initted with runit.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo


_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

[Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale]

+1

-----Original Message-----
From: Ale [mailto:ale-***@ale.org] On Behalf Of James Taylor via Ale
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 2:05 PM
To: ***@ale.org; Jeff Hubbs
Subject: Re: [ale] New user introduction

Or you could just use the stuff to get things done and not worry about it.
-jt


James Taylor
678-697-9420
Or, you can install Gentoo Linux and switch among OpenRC, systemd, Epoch, and runit at will; OpenRC is the default. Apparently there is overlay support for upstart.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:53:54 -0400

Post by Simba via Ale
These endless arguments and debates are why I decided to stop
worrying and love systemd.

That's certainly your choice.
If you ever want to know more about what others are talking about,
throw up a Qemu VM, install Void Linux, which comes with the runit
init system, and see what Linux is like when initted with runit.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own
Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo


_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo