[ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me

[James Taylor via Ale]

I'm a huge fan of linux. Like many, if not all of the people on this list, I depend on it to put food on the table.
My first *nix system was an SCO 286 box that I ran serial terminals and UUCP access for mail and newgroups.
I've supported, to some extent, various flavors of unix from IBM, Sun, HP and even Wang Labs.
I've used linux as my exclusive desktop since 2001.
In all that time, the only constant has been change.
I've been running systems with sysvinit from that original SCO system until very recently, so I have become very used to it.
That said, I'm not going to build my own distribution and support it.
I depend on major distros, commercial and free, to support my customers, and they don't want to have to think about anything except how their systems generate revenue or otherwise support their organizations' goals.
I use my computers to provide that support, in addition to my own meager development efforts to support the integrations I do to meet their needs.
systemd was a major pita, partly because all of the vendors that I use to support my customers went for it wholesale. So I have the choice of creating a ridiculous amount of ongoing effort to do something different, or learn how to deal with systemd.
Ultimately, it works, and doesn't interfere with anything I need to do.
The learning curve is not different than any other one related to having to move off of a deprecated utility.
There are things I like and don't like about it, but it doesn't really change the character of linux enough to make me look elsewhere, so I do what I've always done, adapt and move on.
-jt




James Taylor
678-697-9420
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[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

EXACTLY how I think and how I feel.  I don't get The Great Controversy.
If you use it professionally, there is no choice.  If you use it
privately or you support your customers yourself, you have to do a lot
of work if you don't use systemd.  But, who cares if you want to do all
that work, go for it?  But, and, leave me alone to use major vendors and
support commercial institutions in their day to day quest for market share.


I could roll my own for home use, but, I just don't care enough, If you
do, please roll your own and stop telling me how worthless the OS I use
everyday is.  by the very feat that I use it everyday (Red hat, Debian,
Fedora, Ubuntu and Arch) says it is NOT worthless and A Living Hell.  I
just learn what I need to learn, apply that knowledge, and move on with
what REALLY matters (making money to feed my family, spending time with
the same, and sometimes killing on screen video bad guys (in Linux, no
less)).


The Market has spoken.  Perhaps it was a rigged game with a rigged
vote?  Eh.  roll you own.  If this sounds harsh, it is not meant to be. 
Just factual on what My View is.  I just don't get it.  The emotional
turmoil.  Really?  People are dying the world over for a variety of
reasons.  No matter what side of an issue you take, there is mass
injustice and people are up in arms YEARS after an init system is
replaced?  OK.  Put it into perspective.

Post by James Taylor via Ale
I'm a huge fan of linux. Like many, if not all of the people on this list, I depend on it to put food on the table.
My first *nix system was an SCO 286 box that I ran serial terminals and UUCP access for mail and newgroups.
I've supported, to some extent, various flavors of unix from IBM, Sun, HP and even Wang Labs.
I've used linux as my exclusive desktop since 2001.
In all that time, the only constant has been change.
I've been running systems with sysvinit from that original SCO system until very recently, so I have become very used to it.
That said, I'm not going to build my own distribution and support it.
I depend on major distros, commercial and free, to support my customers, and they don't want to have to think about anything except how their systems generate revenue or otherwise support their organizations' goals.
I use my computers to provide that support, in addition to my own meager development efforts to support the integrations I do to meet their needs.
systemd was a major pita, partly because all of the vendors that I use to support my customers went for it wholesale. So I have the choice of creating a ridiculous amount of ongoing effort to do something different, or learn how to deal with systemd.
Ultimately, it works, and doesn't interfere with anything I need to do.
The learning curve is not different than any other one related to having to move off of a deprecated utility.
There are things I like and don't like about it, but it doesn't really change the character of linux enough to make me look elsewhere, so I do what I've always done, adapt and move on.
-jt
James Taylor
678-697-9420
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[leam hall via Ale]

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
The Market has spoken.

If the status quo were sufficient and the market voice enough then
Linux would not exist. No need for it. That's perspective.

You're right, compared to the ills of the world a Linux init system
isn't a big deal. That's why I moderate my tone and express my
opinions tactfully.

Having the option if systemd, or not, would have been a better course
of action for me. Having to move from sysvinit to systemd is something
I don't have to do right now. That gives me a little time to look at
my career and think about where I want to grow into. I feel systemd is
bad enough that what RHEL 7 is seems to not be Linux. If I'm not doing
Linux then a lot of things open up.

Leam
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[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

I find that opinion interesting.  I do Linux because I find the way it
work is like how I think.  I get paid to do it, and by some freak of
nature, I am pretty good at it and make a very good living doing it. 
When it comes to making a living, do what ever pays :)  Feeding yourself
and family is not a Holy Cause.  It is what men the world over get out
of bed to do every day and most of them never heard of Linux.

Post by leam hall via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
The Market has spoken.

If the status quo were sufficient and the market voice enough then
Linux would not exist. No need for it. That's perspective.
You're right, compared to the ills of the world a Linux init system
isn't a big deal. That's why I moderate my tone and express my
opinions tactfully.
Having the option if systemd, or not, would have been a better course
of action for me. Having to move from sysvinit to systemd is something
I don't have to do right now. That gives me a little time to look at
my career and think about where I want to grow into. I feel systemd is
bad enough that what RHEL 7 is seems to not be Linux. If I'm not doing
Linux then a lot of things open up.
Leam
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[leam hall via Ale]

I find that opinion interesting. I do Linux because I find the way it work
is like how I think. I get paid to do it, and by some freak of nature, I am
pretty good at it and make a very good living doing it. When it comes to
making a living, do what ever pays :) Feeding yourself and family is not a
Holy Cause. It is what men the world over get out of bed to do every day
and most of them never heard of Linux.

Over the course of my career I've seen people who supported a variety
of Unix-ish operating systems. The difference between someone who does
"ThisOS" only at work and a person who does it at work and at home can
be significant. If the OS is becoming a large application where the
company has to wait days for tech support or pay for professional
services to make major changes then it seems more like Windows,
Oracle, or some large "thing". That's not a bad career choice, but it
isn't within my perception of Linux.

I write this at home on a CentOS 6 box using Firefox and GMail. When
things break I can cat the logs and vi the config files if I need to.
I don't that RHEL will stick with systemd, they didn't stick with
upstart. Since they may still employ LP they may go with systemd. Of
course, from my perspective they are going to containerization as a
primary market and leaving the server OS as a secondary product. It
probably makes a lot of business sense.

From a career perspective I need to work until I die. No real savings
or inheritance. I want that work to be fun and challenging. I don't
want to retire anyway, it seems boring. So I need to pick my topics
for the next ~20 years. Maybe there's a container system that doesn't
use systemd.

On containers, that may be a decent use case for systemd. I don't know
though. I did ask what systemd could do that couldn't be done by other
init systems. So far I haven't seen any responses to that.

Hope that makes sense.

Leam
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[James Taylor via Ale]

FWIW -
On my distro I can still install syslog-ng and disable the journald stuff.
I'll have to figure it out eventually, but not yet.
-jt
I write this at home on a CentOS 6 box using Firefox and GMail. When
things break I can cat the logs and vi the config files if I need to.


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[Solomon Peachy via Ale]

Post by James Taylor via Ale
On my distro I can still install syslog-ng and disable the journald stuff.
I'll have to figure it out eventually, but not yet.

Once you have a traditional syslog daemon installed and running,
forwarding journald's output to syslog is as simple as adding this line
to /etc/systemd/journald.conf:

ForwardToSyslog=yes

Then you can add one of these:

Storage=volatile # keeps a small in-memory log buffer
Storage=none # disables all log retention, forwarding only.

BTW, with journald forward to syslog you get the best of all worlds --
systemd+journald captures *everything* a process emits (ie
stdout/stderr) instead only what was explicitly sent to syslog. IME
that feature has proven itself to be invaluable.

- Solomon

[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

Makes perfect sense to me.  And to answer your question, nothing. 
Systemd does nothing that can't be done by something else.  I am
actually not a fan, but I can't hardly care enough to replace it.  There
is a HUGE difference between technical people who do it for work and
people who do it for work AND play, and it does not really matter what
OS your technology you may be talking about. You can spot it a mile away
at work.

Post by leam hall via Ale

I find that opinion interesting. I do Linux because I find the way it work
is like how I think. I get paid to do it, and by some freak of nature, I am
pretty good at it and make a very good living doing it. When it comes to
making a living, do what ever pays :) Feeding yourself and family is not a
Holy Cause. It is what men the world over get out of bed to do every day
and most of them never heard of Linux.

Over the course of my career I've seen people who supported a variety
of Unix-ish operating systems. The difference between someone who does
"ThisOS" only at work and a person who does it at work and at home can
be significant. If the OS is becoming a large application where the
company has to wait days for tech support or pay for professional
services to make major changes then it seems more like Windows,
Oracle, or some large "thing". That's not a bad career choice, but it
isn't within my perception of Linux.
I write this at home on a CentOS 6 box using Firefox and GMail. When
things break I can cat the logs and vi the config files if I need to.
I don't that RHEL will stick with systemd, they didn't stick with
upstart. Since they may still employ LP they may go with systemd. Of
course, from my perspective they are going to containerization as a
primary market and leaving the server OS as a secondary product. It
probably makes a lot of business sense.
From a career perspective I need to work until I die. No real savings
or inheritance. I want that work to be fun and challenging. I don't
want to retire anyway, it seems boring. So I need to pick my topics
for the next ~20 years. Maybe there's a container system that doesn't
use systemd.
On containers, that may be a decent use case for systemd. I don't know
though. I did ask what systemd could do that couldn't be done by other
init systems. So far I haven't seen any responses to that.
Hope that makes sense.
Leam
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[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:34:01 -0500

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
The Market has spoken. 

I'd label the preceding as a premature declaration of victory. I'll bet
you Red Hat is shocked at the number and mindshare of holdout distros,
especially since a lot of them are using inits other than sysvinit, so
in many dimensions they are demonstrably better than systemd.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
Perhaps it was a rigged game with a rigged
vote?  Eh.  roll you own. 

What the hell do you think millions of us are doing? Projects have
sanitized Arch and Manjaro. The systemd-free Devuan project is being
used in shops all over the place. Former Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat, Fedora
and OpenSuSe users populate the worlds of Void Linux, Devuan, and *BSD,
bringing with their knowledge and common sense.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
If this sounds harsh, it is not meant to
be.

It's just the Libertarian in you. Well, we're all Libertarian, and
plenty of us voted by switching distros. Although systemd commands the
major mindshare in big-iron corporations, plenty of businesses and
individuals use its alternatives and like it that way.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
Just factual on what My View is.  I just don't get it. 

OK, listen to what the systemd-free folks are really saying.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
The
emotional turmoil.  Really? 

A piece of with-us-or-agin-us software on 70% of Linux boxes make it
inconvenient for us. Yeah, *we* don't use it, but there's always some
fool who thinks it's cool and new to gratuitously dependency a piece of
formerly init-independent software to systemd. It's a hassle. Think of
how you feel when people send you MS Office documents with MS Office
proprietary features. You get mad.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
People are dying the world over for a
variety of reasons. 

That's over the top. If discourse didn't start til people died, this
would be a horrible world. The preceding sentence is a no-op.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
No matter what side of an issue you take, there
is mass injustice

Ditto.

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
people are up in arms YEARS after an init
system is replaced?  OK.  Put it into perspective.

Yes, YEARS. Put that into perspective. I don't remember any other free
software that this happened with. You might want to really listen to
folks who don't use systemd and work to keep it that way.

And please, if you want to answer points I've made, please interleave
post so we all know the context to which you're replying.

SteveT
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[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:34:01 -0500

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
The Market has spoken.

I'd label the preceding as a premature declaration of victory. I'll bet
you Red Hat is shocked at the number and mindshare of holdout distros,
especially since a lot of them are using inits other than sysvinit, so
in many dimensions they are demonstrably better than systemd.

Not really a label, it was meant to be an observation.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
Perhaps it was a rigged game with a rigged
vote?  Eh.  roll you own.

What the hell do you think millions of us are doing? Projects have
sanitized Arch and Manjaro. The systemd-free Devuan project is being
used in shops all over the place. Former Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat, Fedora
and OpenSuSe users populate the worlds of Void Linux, Devuan, and *BSD,
bringing with their knowledge and common sense.

hmmm, missed that in my myopia. I really don't move in those circles.  I
just grab a distro and install it and they all (major) default to
systemd.  I mean, are there really major distros moving to avoid
systemd?  I know you can grab Arch or Gento and do either, but aside
from that?  Devuan, is it alive and well?  *BSD?  Solid OS, I guess, I
never used it much, but that is a tiny, tiny market share.  Serious
questions, no sarcasm meant at all.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
If this sounds harsh, it is not meant to
be.

It's just the Libertarian in you. Well, we're all Libertarian, and
plenty of us voted by switching distros. Although systemd commands the
major mindshare in big-iron corporations, plenty of businesses and
individuals use its alternatives and like it that way.

yeah, no large business, but they don't care.  They just want to buy
support and that means Red Hat and systemd.  Some Ubunut. Small
business, don't care, they want it for nothing and will take what ever
their expert tells them will work.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
Just factual on what My View is.  I just don't get it.

OK, listen to what the systemd-free folks are really saying.

They are saying, don't force it down our throats.  Who is?
or perhaps I am missing it?

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
The
emotional turmoil.  Really?

A piece of with-us-or-agin-us software on 70% of Linux boxes make it
inconvenient for us. Yeah, *we* don't use it, but there's always some
fool who thinks it's cool and new to gratuitously dependency a piece of
formerly init-independent software to systemd. It's a hassle. Think of
how you feel when people send you MS Office documents with MS Office
proprietary features. You get mad.

Valid.  Agreed.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
People are dying the world over for a
variety of reasons.

That's over the top. If discourse didn't start til people died, this
would be a horrible world. The preceding sentence is a no-op.

of course.  it is to draw attention to it.  to much drama.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
No matter what side of an issue you take, there
is mass injustice

Ditto.

Ditto.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
people are up in arms YEARS after an init
system is replaced?  OK.  Put it into perspective.

Yes, YEARS. Put that into perspective. I don't remember any other free
software that this happened with. You might want to really listen to
folks who don't use systemd and work to keep it that way.

Gnome shell anybody?  Gnome used to be good.  Now I use XFCE4 or Mint
(derivative of Gnome shell, but a very usable one).  I could (and face
to face I do) go on a rant about how I don't want my tablet to act like
my phone that acts like my desktop.  I am still made at Gnome for making
changes taking choice away.  I can understand THAT.

Grub anybody (for another example).  People hated GRUB Lilo was sooo
simple to use.  Network manager.  Used to rip it out every chance I got.

but then again, I used to configure my wireless by hand and use iwconfig
to get it working.  Just seems like change.  While there are distros
running that don't use them, are they more than just a niche?  Again, a
real question.  I will go and search such things out and see the state
of those projects.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
And please, if you want to answer points I've made, please interleave
post so we all know the context to which you're replying.

Yeah, point taken, I actually noted that in my last reply.  Default mail
client, was to lazy to jump in and change it.  Also tainted with
outlook.  I actually hate top posting for all but the most brief response.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
SteveT
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[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

Now I use XFCE4 or Mint (derivative of Gnome shell, but a very usable
one).  I could (and face to face I do) go on a rant about how I don't
want my tablet to act like my phone that acts like my desktop.  I am
still made a

I meant to say I use Cinnamon, but I typed Mint.
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[Joey Kelly via Ale]

hmmm, missed that in my myopia. I really don't move in those circles. I
just grab a distro and install it and they all (major) default to
systemd. I mean, are there really major distros moving to avoid
systemd? I know you can grab Arch or Gento and do either, but aside
from that? Devuan, is it alive and well? *BSD? Solid OS, I guess, I
never used it much, but that is a tiny, tiny market share. Serious
questions, no sarcasm meant at all.

Don't slackware get no love anymore?
--
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Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant
http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:13:31 -0600

Post by Joey Kelly via Ale

Post by Damon L. Chesser via Ale
hmmm, missed that in my myopia. I really don't move in those
circles. I just grab a distro and install it and they all (major)
default to systemd. I mean, are there really major distros moving
to avoid systemd? I know you can grab Arch or Gento and do either,
but aside from that? Devuan, is it alive and well? *BSD? Solid
OS, I guess, I never used it much, but that is a tiny, tiny market
share. Serious questions, no sarcasm meant at all.

Don't slackware get no love anymore?

Yes. My mistake for not mentioning Slackware as one of the sans-systemd
distros. I'd imagine Slack is a VERY good distro for the DIY person.

SteveT
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[Joey Kelly via Ale]

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Joey Kelly via Ale
Don't slackware get no love anymore?

Yes. My mistake for not mentioning Slackware as one of the sans-systemd
distros. I'd imagine Slack is a VERY good distro for the DIY person.

It definitely is DIY, but so is Arch. I've been using it on the desktop and in
labs for years, and am working towards putting it on most of my servers. I
dabbled with FreeBSD for prod, but its learning curve is a little too steep...
as a trade-off, I can wrangle Slackware and be happier a lot quicker.

Slack's perennial problem is 3rd-party package mangling. The base OS (you
always want to install full package sets, if not the entire DVD) is great, but
while sbopkg and sbotools are handy, the slackbuilds universe is a moving
target. Where I'm at now, having decided to not pursue FreeBSD, is compiling
and configuring my own set (slackbuilds plus cpan), with the next step being
hosting that as a repo, pulled in via slackpkg+. I think this is about the
worst aspect of using Slackware... having to be a build maintainer. I'd much
rather yum, apt-get or pkg install foo and let others fight with compiling
software.
--
Joey Kelly
Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant
http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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[Joey Kelly via Ale]

Post by Steve Litt via Ale

Post by Joey Kelly via Ale
Don't slackware get no love anymore?

Yes. My mistake for not mentioning Slackware as one of the sans-systemd
distros. I'd imagine Slack is a VERY good distro for the DIY person.

It definitely is DIY, but so is Arch. I've been using it on the desktop and in
labs for years, and am working towards putting it on most of my servers. I
dabbled with FreeBSD for prod, but its learning curve is a little too steep...
as a trade-off, I can wrangle Slackware and be happier a lot quicker.

Slack's perennial problem is 3rd-party package mangling. The base OS (you
always want to install full package sets, if not the entire DVD) is great, but
while sbopkg and sbotools are handy, the slackbuilds universe is a moving
target. Where I'm at now, having decided to not pursue FreeBSD, is compiling
and configuring my own set (slackbuilds plus cpan), with the next step being
hosting that as a repo, pulled in via slackpkg+. I think this is about the
worst aspect of using Slackware... having to be a build maintainer. I'd much
rather yum, apt-get or pkg install foo and let others fight with compiling
software.
--
Joey Kelly
Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant
http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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[Solomon Peachy via Ale]

Grub anybody (for another example).  People hated GRUB Lilo was sooo simple
to use.  Network manager.  Used to rip it out every chance I got.

I don't miss LI(LO). Brittle as all hell. grub was a quantum leap
forward in functionality, usability, and reliability.

One could argue about the merits/approaches of grub1 vs grub2, but I
also understand the technical reasoning/necessity for the changes (in a
word: UEFI)

- Solomon

[Steve Litt via Ale]

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:42:58 -0500
James Taylor via Ale <***@ale.org> wrote an email with this subject.

Steve Litt replies:

The very subject of this thread is a false dilemma
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma).

And it's a false dilemma the systemd cabal employs endlessly, so as not
to compete with modern simple and efficient inits like runit and s6,
or, if you like a 100% single file startup, Epoch.


SteveT
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[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

I hate to nit pick (I really do) but your statement is actually a false
dilemma.  The OP stated "why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter
to me", not "systemd vs sysvinit".  The OP says he can't find the time,
he just wants to use the OS.  The OP never said "this or that".

I am with him.  I just don't care.  That is an opinion, not a dilemma. 
I also don't like watermelon.  Nothing to argue about here.  If you like
watermelon, eat it.  If you want init $FOO use it.  I just don't want it
(particularly, I mean, you need some sort of init) or really even care
about it (which init is used), as long as I can us the Linux (GNU or
otherwise) when it it booted.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:42:58 -0500
The very subject of this thread is a false dilemma
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma).
And it's a false dilemma the systemd cabal employs endlessly, so as not
to compete with modern simple and efficient inits like runit and s6,
or, if you like a 100% single file startup, Epoch.
SteveT
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[Solomon Peachy via Ale]

I am with him.  I just don't care.  That is an opinion, not a dilemma.  I
also don't like watermelon.  Nothing to argue about here.  If you like
watermelon, eat it.  If you want init $FOO use it.  I just don't want it
(particularly, I mean, you need some sort of init) or really even care about
it (which init is used), as long as I can us the Linux (GNU or otherwise)
when it it booted.

From the "objector's" perspective, they are being "forced" to use
systemd against their wishes. And, somewhat understandably, they don't
like that. (Or in the case of Devuan, "forced" to have libsystemd
physically present on their system)

"init system freedom" (to borrow the nonsensical Devuan catchphrase),
much like the other "freedoms" that Linux is supposedly about, applies
to those who *put together* Linux systems. As soon as you use the
system that someone else has put together, you're restricted by the
choices *they* made. If you don't like those choices, you're perfectly
free (and encouraged) to DIY and roll your own reflecting your own
choices/needs.

Can that be a lot of work? Absolutely. But if one's not willing to
undertake that effort for themselves, one doesn't get to complain about
someone else not being willing do that work either -- at least if no
money is changing hands.

https://lwn.net/Articles/734038/

- Solomon

[Jim Kinney via Ale]

One would think that the distro's that switched to systemd were now
sending the Spanish Inquisition to all non-converts. And they weren't
sending the comfy chair :-)
I was nearly doubled over reading how using a giant plethora of
miscellaneous tools everything in systemd could be replicated with
Poettering. I guess they missed the entire point.

[Damon L. Chesser via Ale]

Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale

I am with him.  I just don't care.  That is an opinion, not a dilemma.  I
also don't like watermelon.  Nothing to argue about here.  If you like
watermelon, eat it.  If you want init $FOO use it.  I just don't want it
(particularly, I mean, you need some sort of init) or really even care about
it (which init is used), as long as I can us the Linux (GNU or otherwise)
when it it booted.

From the "objector's" perspective, they are being "forced" to use
systemd against their wishes. And, somewhat understandably, they don't
like that. (Or in the case of Devuan, "forced" to have libsystemd
physically present on their system)
"init system freedom" (to borrow the nonsensical Devuan catchphrase),
much like the other "freedoms" that Linux is supposedly about, applies
to those who *put together* Linux systems. As soon as you use the
system that someone else has put together, you're restricted by the
choices *they* made. If you don't like those choices, you're perfectly
free (and encouraged) to DIY and roll your own reflecting your own
choices/needs.
Can that be a lot of work? Absolutely. But if one's not willing to
undertake that effort for themselves, one doesn't get to complain about
someone else not being willing do that work either -- at least if no
money is changing hands.

Best statement yet, one that completely encapsulated my thoughts on the
matter.

Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale
https://lwn.net/Articles/734038/
- Solomon

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