[ale] Ubuntu 18.04 release notes

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:40:38 -0400

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseNotes#Updated_Packages
Worth a read. Lots of changes from 16.04 stuff.
* X11 is default, not Wayland

Was Wayland the default in earlier Ubuntu versions?

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
* Gnome3 is default with Ubuntu theme

Probably everyone on this list knows this already, but it's trivially
easy to trade a high performance WM/DE (window manager/ desktop
environment) for the ball and chain known as Gnome3. My favorite is
LXDE: LXDE *never* does anything stupid, and is always quick, always
does what you expect, and saves your machine's resources for your
applications.

LXDE is being phased out in favor of LXQt, which is also very good.

I don't need a panel, so I use Openbox outfitted with Suckless Tools'
dmenu and my own UMENU.

Fvwm, ctwm, WindowMaker, IceWM, are all great, as are some of the
tiling window managers if you like that kind of thing. For that 256MB
RAM box that simply *must* have GUI, jwm and i9 do the job well.

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
* Netplan.io replaces interfaces ifupdown packages for network configs
(ouch!)

https://netplan.io/

I'd *love* to configure my network with YAML. However, it looks like
netplan.io requires either systemd or NetworkManager, which is a
systemd proxy and is pretty much useless without systemd. So I guess I
won't be using netplan.io.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Jim Lynch via Ale

2018-04-26 20:21:54 UTC

They introduced it in 15.04 or 15.10 but decided not to continue with it
just yet.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
Was Wayland the default in earlier Ubuntu versions?

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

DJ-Pfulio via Ale

2018-04-26 21:20:13 UTC

Wayland+Gnome3 was the default in 17.10, but there were too many issues
for an LTS like 18.04. It is still there, but you'll have to pick it
pre-login.

I don't know how long (or if) it was optional in Ubuntu before that.

Things like VNC and Skype and most screen/image capture tools didn't
work well with Wayland last time I checked.

Post by Jim Lynch via Ale
They introduced it in 15.04 or 15.10 but decided not to continue with it
just yet.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
Was Wayland the default in earlier Ubuntu versions?

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Alex Carver via Ale

2018-04-26 21:35:20 UTC

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
I'd *love* to configure my network with YAML.

Why???

YAML is too sensitive to white space just like many other MLs. Last
week I spent forever trying to get a couple programs to run that both
happen to use YAML for their configuration files. It always choked
while parsing the YAML no matter what I did. Even dumping the internal
state to a YAML formatted file (there was a command line option provided
to do this) would put out a file that could not be read back in. I gave
up and configured the program entirely from the command line, having to
bypass config files entirely.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Joey Kelly via Ale

2018-04-26 22:23:02 UTC

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
I'd *love* to configure my network with YAML.

Why???

There's this thing called Ansible, maybe you've heard of it?
--
Joey Kelly
Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant
http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Steve Litt via Ale

2018-04-26 23:47:42 UTC

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:23:02 -0400

Post by Joey Kelly via Ale

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
I'd *love* to configure my network with YAML.

Why???

There's this thing called Ansible, maybe you've heard of it?

I don't use Ansible, so I looked up Ansible and YAML and found this
very handy and concise guide:

http://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/reference_appendices/YAMLSyntax.html

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Steve Litt via Ale

2018-04-26 23:42:08 UTC

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:35:20 -0700

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
I'd *love* to configure my network with YAML.

Why???
YAML is too sensitive to white space just like many other MLs. Last
week I spent forever trying to get a couple programs to run that both
happen to use YAML for their configuration files. It always choked
while parsing the YAML no matter what I did. Even dumping the
internal state to a YAML formatted file (there was a command line
option provided to do this) would put out a file that could not be
read back in. I gave up and configured the program entirely from the
command line, having to bypass config files entirely.

Sounds like a bad program that used YAML poorly.

Also, you're right in that YAML spacing can be confusing, especially if
indentation is shallow or inconsistent, and of course if tabs get
introduced accidentally.

But for a good program used by a YAML aware user, YAML is a great way
to specify what otherwise would be very complex config.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Pete Hardie via Ale

2018-04-27 01:07:25 UTC

YAML is whitespace sensitive? Seems unwise

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:35:20 -0700

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
I'd *love* to configure my network with YAML.

Why???
YAML is too sensitive to white space just like many other MLs. Last
week I spent forever trying to get a couple programs to run that both
happen to use YAML for their configuration files. It always choked
while parsing the YAML no matter what I did. Even dumping the
internal state to a YAML formatted file (there was a command line
option provided to do this) would put out a file that could not be
read back in. I gave up and configured the program entirely from the
command line, having to bypass config files entirely.

Sounds like a bad program that used YAML poorly.
Also, you're right in that YAML spacing can be confusing, especially if
indentation is shallow or inconsistent, and of course if tabs get
introduced accidentally.
But for a good program used by a YAML aware user, YAML is a great way
to specify what otherwise would be very complex config.
SteveT
Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps

Alex Carver via Ale

2018-04-27 04:29:43 UTC

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
YAML is whitespace sensitive? Seems unwise

Indentation level determines structure and the characters defining the
indentations must match.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Kyle Brieden via Ale

2018-04-27 16:43:04 UTC

https://twitter.com/sadoperator/status/989895215442837504

But seriously, though, I appreciate YAML for what it is, and that is "a
human readable markup language". It's easy to look over it and suss out
what is what, much like JSON. I prefer JSON to YAML, but they're both
widely used and well implemented most of the time.

---
Very respectfully,
Kyle Brieden

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
YAML is whitespace sensitive? Seems unwise

Indentation level determines structure and the characters defining the
indentations must match.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Alex Carver via Ale

2018-04-27 17:00:46 UTC

Post by Kyle Brieden via Ale
https://twitter.com/sadoperator/status/989895215442837504
But seriously, though, I appreciate YAML for what it is, and that is "a
human readable markup language". It's easy to look over it and suss out
what is what, much like JSON. I prefer JSON to YAML, but they're both
widely used and well implemented most of the time.

JSON is reasonably human readable and certainly does not depend on
indentation to read it.

I can read and write this:

{
"array1": {"A", "B", "C", "D"},
"struct1": {"param1": val, "param2": val},
"struct2": {"param3": val, "param4": val}
"list":
{
{"list_item_id": id, "list_item_name": "foo", "list_item_param": param },
{"list_item_id": id, "list_item_name": "foo", "list_item_param": param },
{"list_item_id": id, "list_item_name": "foo", "list_item_param": param }
}
}

far easier and with less likelihood of errors due to whitespace (since
JSON doesn't care) or wrong flags (dashes or not) and overall alignment
compared to:

array1:
- A
- B
- C
- D
struct1:
param1: val
param2: val
struct2:
param3: val
param4: val
list:
- list_item_id: id
list_item_name: foo
list_item_param: param
- list_item_id: id
list_item_name: foo
list_item_param: param
- list_item_id: id
list_item_name: foo
list_item_param: param

Did I use tabs or spaces? Do I have the list items in the right spot
because not all of them use the dash? Do the number of spaces between
the dash and the name matter for the later items? Plus all of the
weirdness of additional flags like literal versus folded scalars where
with the JSON I'd just embed the new lines where and when needed.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

leam hall via Ale

2018-04-27 17:06:45 UTC

YAML spacing drives my nuts on a frequent basis since I use Ansible.
However, JSON dies if you miss a comma.

JSON is reasonably human readable and certainly does not depend on
indentation to read it.
{
"array1": {"A", "B", "C", "D"},
"struct1": {"param1": val, "param2": val},
"struct2": {"param3": val, "param4": val}
{
{"list_item_id": id, "list_item_name": "foo", "list_item_param": param },
{"list_item_id": id, "list_item_name": "foo", "list_item_param": param },
{"list_item_id": id, "list_item_name": "foo", "list_item_param": param }
}
}
far easier and with less likelihood of errors due to whitespace (since
JSON doesn't care) or wrong flags (dashes or not) and overall alignment
- A
- B
- C
- D
param1: val
param2: val
param3: val
param4: val
- list_item_id: id
list_item_name: foo
list_item_param: param
- list_item_id: id
list_item_name: foo
list_item_param: param
- list_item_id: id
list_item_name: foo
list_item_param: param
Did I use tabs or spaces? Do I have the list items in the right spot
because not all of them use the dash? Do the number of spaces between
the dash and the name matter for the later items? Plus all of the
weirdness of additional flags like literal versus folded scalars where
with the JSON I'd just embed the new lines where and when needed.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Alex Carver via Ale

2018-04-27 17:41:52 UTC

Post by leam hall via Ale
YAML spacing drives my nuts on a frequent basis since I use Ansible.
However, JSON dies if you miss a comma.

True, but at least that's parsable. You can run a JSON through a linter
or break it up into lines like my original example and the missing
comma will be more visible. I've run into that before writing for
embedded devices where I was returning JSON formatted data (for ease of
parsing on the other end) and forgot the comma (easy to do when the JSON
is hand typed into the code as the formatting string for snprintf().
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Kyle Brieden via Ale

2018-04-27 18:04:21 UTC

It's almost as if different standards, designed by humans, are fallible
in their own ways and aren't perfect for every given situation. :P

I do prefer JSON to YAML for reasons stated earlier in this chain. I
feel like JSON is a really good balance between human and machine
parsable, but with the frankly absurd multitude of tools at our disposal
these days, unless you're writing basically everything in
TextEdit/Notepad/Nano (and even nano may have plugins, but I can't speak
to that), there's no reason to take 60 seconds and install a plugin that
lints/parses YAML/JSON for you as you type.

I also disagree with the implication that you can't run YAML through a
linter. It is designed to be a machine-parsable format, therefore it
must be structured, and if it is well structured, programmatic linting
is possible. It's a markup language, not english :P

---
Very respectfully,
Kyle Brieden

Post by leam hall via Ale
YAML spacing drives my nuts on a frequent basis since I use Ansible.
However, JSON dies if you miss a comma.

True, but at least that's parsable. You can run a JSON through a linter
or break it up into lines like my original example and the missing
comma will be more visible. I've run into that before writing for
embedded devices where I was returning JSON formatted data (for ease of
parsing on the other end) and forgot the comma (easy to do when the JSON
is hand typed into the code as the formatting string for snprintf().
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

DJ-Pfulio via Ale

2018-04-27 18:02:15 UTC

And compared to both those below, the old interfaces file is bonehead
simple. Indent or not. Tabs or spaces. Whatever

# ####################################
auto kr0
iface kr0 inet static
address 172.22.22.6
gateway 172.22.22.1
netmask 255.255.255.0
dns-nameservers 1.1.1.1 208.67.220.220

The yaml version **is** fairly readable.
JSON is only better than XML, IMHO. Non-trivial XML sucks.

--
Got Linux? Used on smartphones, tablets, desktop computers, media
centers, and servers by kids, Moms, Dads, grandparents and IT
professionals.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Steve Litt via Ale

2018-04-28 06:59:57 UTC

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:00:46 -0700

Post by Kyle Brieden via Ale
https://twitter.com/sadoperator/status/989895215442837504
But seriously, though, I appreciate YAML for what it is, and that
is "a human readable markup language". It's easy to look over it
and suss out what is what, much like JSON. I prefer JSON to YAML,
but they're both widely used and well implemented most of the
time.

OK, but how about this:

{"array1":{"A","B","C","D"},"struct1":{"param1":val,"param2":val},
"struct2":{"param3":val,"param4":val}"list":{{"list_item_id":id,
"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param},{"list_item_id":id,
"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param},
{"list_item_id":id,"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param}}}

Every format/language I know of that's not indentation aware has end
tags, which are ultimately readable by machines, but not so much by
humans. Which is why humans usually lay out their
indentation-independent code with strict indentation rules. There's a
name for getting rid of the spacing in C: *Obfuscated* C. You ever try
working on a large web page where they got rid of newlines to save a
few bytes? Whatamess!

Ever seen C code worked on by 4 different coders?

int square(i){
return(i*i)
}

int cube(i)
{
return(i*i*i)
}

int quad(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i)
}

int quint(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i)
}

int
sept(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i*i*i)
}

The preceding are only the tip of the iceberg. There are
plenty more indentation standards. Programmers go to war over this
stuff.

And what happens when a maintenance programmer misunderstands some
careless indentation, and adapts his end tags to that bogus
understanding?

The fact is, most humans need indentation context to quickly understand
a program or format. Since the indentation context is necessary, why
not make it part of the format, so we're all on the same page, and,
hooray, get rid of the end tags?

Don't get me wrong, indentation dependency doesn't work for everything.
HTML and XML without end tags would be a horror movie. But where it
works, I think indentation dependency is often an improvement.

This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

Alex Carver via Ale

2018-04-28 08:28:42 UTC

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
{"array1":{"A","B","C","D"},"struct1":{"param1":val,"param2":val},
"struct2":{"param3":val,"param4":val}"list":{{"list_item_id":id,
"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param},{"list_item_id":id,
"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param},
{"list_item_id":id,"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param}}}
Every format/language I know of that's not indentation aware has end
tags, which are ultimately readable by machines, but not so much by
humans. Which is why humans usually lay out their
indentation-independent code with strict indentation rules. There's a
name for getting rid of the spacing in C: *Obfuscated* C. You ever try
working on a large web page where they got rid of newlines to save a
few bytes? Whatamess!
Ever seen C code worked on by 4 different coders?
int square(i){
return(i*i)
}
int cube(i)
{
return(i*i*i)
}
int quad(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i)
}
int quint(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i)
}
int
sept(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i*i*i)
}
The preceding are only the tip of the iceberg. There are
plenty more indentation standards. Programmers go to war over this
stuff.
And what happens when a maintenance programmer misunderstands some
careless indentation, and adapts his end tags to that bogus
understanding?
The fact is, most humans need indentation context to quickly understand
a program or format. Since the indentation context is necessary, why
not make it part of the format, so we're all on the same page, and,
hooray, get rid of the end tags?
Don't get me wrong, indentation dependency doesn't work for everything.
HTML and XML without end tags would be a horror movie. But where it
works, I think indentation dependency is often an improvement.
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

You missed my point, though. If I have to create a configuration file
using a parsed format then it's technically easier to use a format that
is agnostic to white space because of the use of start/end markers/tags,
etc. So writing out JSON the way I did is conceptually easier to read
in a configuration file than the equivalent YAML simply because I don't
have to care what the white space looks like and where they fall.
Technically I don't even know if the example I wrote was going to be
parsed as valid YAML. It looks like a configuration file I had to try
and write but didn't work and also looks like one the software generated
but wouldn't work either.

The discussion started with the idea of using YAML for configuration
files and it just seems ill suited for that application given how picky
it is about exact formatting with lines and spaces.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

DJ-Pfulio via Ale

2018-04-28 10:31:35 UTC

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
There are
plenty more indentation standards. Programmers go to war over this
stuff.

Haven't dealt with this since the 1990s. Professional teams enforce coding
style with automated tools at check-in. A few coders will convert the code to
their own style at check-out for few months, but usually those people will
eventually conform to the group's standards.

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Pete Hardie via Ale

2018-04-28 12:21:08 UTC

I feel the main issue is that "space" and "tab" are

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
There are
plenty more indentation standards. Programmers go to war over this
stuff.

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

DJ-Pfulio via Ale

2018-04-28 13:45:31 UTC

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
I feel the main issue is that "space" and "tab" are

Trivially handled by .vimrc files.
:set tabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab

The main files I know that need tabs to work are Makefiles. There are
probably others, just not things I use.

Plus the code reformat tool should handle tabs, spaces and indents at
check-in time anyway.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Jim Kinney via Ale

2018-04-28 13:48:23 UTC

Ialwaysfoundspacestobeawasteofresources.sameformostpunctuationotherthan.and!?

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
I feel the main issue is that "space" and "tab" are

Trivially handled by .vimrc files.
:set tabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab
The main files I know that need tabs to work are Makefiles. There are
probably others, just not things I use.
Plus the code reformat tool should handle tabs, spaces and indents at
check-in time anyway.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity.

Pete Hardie via Ale

2018-04-28 14:40:49 UTC

(There are 2 kinds of people in the world - those who can extrapolate from
incomplete data,)

.vimrc fixes *my* confusion, but not those from others doing it. And the
makefile example is exactly why.

And config files are the worst place for this, since they will be edited.
Source code stops being edited before its tested, so any issues can be
found before deployment. But a config file will always be edited onsite by
someone not part of the development team, so any space/tab mixup they have
in their editor will raise its ugly head

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
I feel the main issue is that "space" and "tab" are

Trivially handled by .vimrc files.
:set tabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab
The main files I know that need tabs to work are Makefiles. There are
probably others, just not things I use.
Plus the code reformat tool should handle tabs, spaces and indents at
check-in time anyway.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps

Steve Litt via Ale

2018-04-28 19:19:47 UTC

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:45:31 -0400

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
I feel the main issue is that "space" and "tab" are

Trivially handled by .vimrc files.
:set tabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab
The main files I know that need tabs to work are Makefiles. There are
probably others, just not things I use.

VimOutliner is tabs-only.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Phil Turmel via Ale

2018-04-28 19:25:44 UTC

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

I don't know how to describe how I feel about all of this, as
I like both C and python. However, they're both a delight
compared to anything based on XML.

Phil
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Jim Kinney via Ale

2018-04-28 20:29:26 UTC

XML stored in LDAP with a custom schema that includes embedded control codes in both field names and data.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

I don't know how to describe how I feel about all of this, as
I like both C and python. However, they're both a delight
compared to anything based on XML.
Phil
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity.

Pete Hardie via Ale

2018-04-28 20:54:09 UTC

You left off Unicode

Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
XML stored in LDAP with a custom schema that includes embedded control
codes in both field names and data.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

I don't know how to describe how I feel about all of this, as
I like both C and python. However, they're both a delight
compared to anything based on XML.
Phil
------------------------------
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related
and reflect authenticity.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Jim Kinney via Ale

2018-04-28 22:05:34 UTC

Sorry. I used a white font with a white background. Stupid ldap

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
You left off Unicode

Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
XML stored in LDAP with a custom schema that includes embedded

control

Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
codes in both field names and data.

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb

Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
and reflect authenticity.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity.

Steve Litt via Ale

2018-04-28 23:36:08 UTC

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 15:25:44 -0400

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

I don't know how to describe how I feel about all of this, as
I like both C and python. However, they're both a delight
compared to anything based on XML.

My Stylz authoring environment uses a very typist friendly native
format, but my pre-converter immediately translates it to XML. Once
something is in XML format, if you have an XML parser, you can have
your way with it. Anything you want to do, if you have a decent
parserer you can do it: You have begin tags, end tags, text, tails,
attribs: XML is the ultimate intermediate format. You can quickly find
whatever you need, and there are built in single generation and full
tree walkers.

But XML as something a user interfaces in an editor: Bwaaaaa haaaaa
haaaa haaa ha, you gotta be kidding me. You're right: C and Python are
delightful compared to that (I think they're both pretty delightful
anyway, but ...)

XML is wonderful for machines, but a human being should never need to
confront XML.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Pete Hardie via Ale

2018-04-29 00:44:49 UTC

Adding fuel to the fire....
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/06/15/1431253/developers-who-use-spaces-make-more-money-than-those-who-use-tabs

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 15:25:44 -0400

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

I don't know how to describe how I feel about all of this, as
I like both C and python. However, they're both a delight
compared to anything based on XML.

My Stylz authoring environment uses a very typist friendly native
format, but my pre-converter immediately translates it to XML. Once
something is in XML format, if you have an XML parser, you can have
your way with it. Anything you want to do, if you have a decent
parserer you can do it: You have begin tags, end tags, text, tails,
attribs: XML is the ultimate intermediate format. You can quickly find
whatever you need, and there are built in single generation and full
tree walkers.
But XML as something a user interfaces in an editor: Bwaaaaa haaaaa
haaaa haaa ha, you gotta be kidding me. You're right: C and Python are
delightful compared to that (I think they're both pretty delightful
anyway, but ...)
XML is wonderful for machines, but a human being should never need to
confront XML.
SteveT
Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps

Jim Kinney via Ale

2018-04-29 03:49:00 UTC

Aspermypriorspacelesspost,imscrewed.

Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
Adding fuel to the fire....
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/06/15/1431253/developers-who-use-spaces-make-more-money-than-those-who-use-tabs

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 15:25:44 -0400

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.

This is one of the reasons I dislike python. ;)
Give me ; anyday.

I don't know how to describe how I feel about all of this, as
I like both C and python. However, they're both a delight
compared to anything based on XML.

find

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
whatever you need, and there are built in single generation and full
tree walkers.
But XML as something a user interfaces in an editor: Bwaaaaa haaaaa
haaaa haaa ha, you gotta be kidding me. You're right: C and Python

are

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
delightful compared to that (I think they're both pretty delightful
anyway, but ...)
XML is wonderful for machines, but a human being should never need to
confront XML.
SteveT
Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity.

Pete Hardie via Ale

2018-04-28 14:45:10 UTC

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
Ever seen C code worked on by 4 different coders?

My worst was code that I believe was edited in WordPad with a
non-monospaced font. Noting lined up to the left at all

Post by Steve Litt via Ale
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:00:46 -0700

Post by Kyle Brieden via Ale
https://twitter.com/sadoperator/status/989895215442837504
But seriously, though, I appreciate YAML for what it is, and that
is "a human readable markup language". It's easy to look over it
and suss out what is what, much like JSON. I prefer JSON to YAML,
but they're both widely used and well implemented most of the
time.

{"array1":{"A","B","C","D"},"struct1":{"param1":val,"param2":val},
"struct2":{"param3":val,"param4":val}"list":{{"list_item_id":id,
"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param},{"list_item_id":id,
"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param},
{"list_item_id":id,"list_item_name":"foo","list_item_param":param}}}
Every format/language I know of that's not indentation aware has end
tags, which are ultimately readable by machines, but not so much by
humans. Which is why humans usually lay out their
indentation-independent code with strict indentation rules. There's a
name for getting rid of the spacing in C: *Obfuscated* C. You ever try
working on a large web page where they got rid of newlines to save a
few bytes? Whatamess!
Ever seen C code worked on by 4 different coders?
int square(i){
return(i*i)
}
int cube(i)
{
return(i*i*i)
}
int quad(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i)
}
int quint(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i)
}
int
sept(i)
{
return(i*i*i*i*i*i)
}
The preceding are only the tip of the iceberg. There are
plenty more indentation standards. Programmers go to war over this
stuff.
And what happens when a maintenance programmer misunderstands some
careless indentation, and adapts his end tags to that bogus
understanding?
The fact is, most humans need indentation context to quickly understand
a program or format. Since the indentation context is necessary, why
not make it part of the format, so we're all on the same page, and,
hooray, get rid of the end tags?
Don't get me wrong, indentation dependency doesn't work for everything.
HTML and XML without end tags would be a horror movie. But where it
works, I think indentation dependency is often an improvement.
This is just one of the reasons I like Python so much.
SteveT
Steve Litt
April 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps

Mark Ulmer via Ale

2018-04-26 20:31:57 UTC

/usr/bin/python3 now the default and only. No python 2 installed by
default anymore. That's gonna take me a min to get used to.

Mark

Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseNotes#Updated_Packages
Worth a read. Lots of changes from 16.04 stuff.
* 4.15 Kernel
* Spectre fixes
* Meltdown fixes
* gcc compiler changes to randomize memory
* CIFS default protocol changed
* OpenJDK 10 is default
* ssh keys must be 1024 or larger
* X11 is default, not Wayland
* Gnome3 is default with Ubuntu theme
* Netplan.io replaces interfaces ifupdown packages for network configs
(ouch!)
There are about 20 other really important things to know. I'll be
impacted by at least 5 of them.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Mark Ulmer
470.695.0550
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Jim Kinney via Ale

2018-04-26 21:15:05 UTC

um, ouch! Loads of stuff has not been ported to 3 yet. My centos gear
has 3 python environments: 2.7, 3.4, and 3.6. Sometimes I just use
python, other times it's python3, newest nightmares is python36.

Post by Mark Ulmer via Ale
/usr/bin/python3 now the default and only. No python 2 installed by
default anymore. That's gonna take me a min to get used to.
Mark

--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/

DJ-Pfulio via Ale

2018-04-26 21:25:25 UTC