Discussion:
[ale] IBM is buying Redhat!
DJ-Pfulio via Ale
2018-10-28 23:21:51 UTC
Permalink
IBM is buying Redhat!

https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider

RHT is currently $116.68/sh.

"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
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Pete Hardie via Ale
2018-10-28 23:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Crap. There goes the neighborhood.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
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--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps
Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-29 01:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch
Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
Crap. There goes the neighborhood.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
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Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
Pete Hardie via Ale
2018-10-29 01:45:47 UTC
Permalink
I'm not that sour on them - they did fight a helluva fight against SCO.
But their management seems unable to make headway against the 'make the
quarter numbers" tide
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch
Crap. There goes the neighborhood.
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
_______________________________________________
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--
James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a
jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a
dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark
Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps
Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-29 01:47:37 UTC
Permalink
I worked for IBM for a bit. It was strange.
Post by Pete Hardie via Ale
I'm not that sour on them - they did fight a helluva fight against SCO.
But their management seems unable to make headway against the 'make the
quarter numbers" tide
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch
Crap. There goes the neighborhood.
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider
of
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of
the
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share
in
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34
billion."
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
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James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to
build a
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like
feeding a
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900
Mark
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity.
Jay Lozier via Ale
2018-10-28 23:46:15 UTC
Permalink
The end of Red Hat, been nice knowing you.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
_______________________________________________
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Simba via Ale
2018-10-28 23:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
I disagree. IBM has been a supporter of Linux for more than a decade
now, they invented the best line of laptops ever made, which are also
great machines for Linux.

I'm not a big fan of Big Blue, but IBM has done some alright things.

Personally, I've wondered for years how RedHat continues to exist. They
sell free software for not-free prices, without offering any real value,
and their commercial software isn't as good as the free alternatives
(Debian, BSD). I'm fairly sure they have only continued to exist thanks
to millions of dollars in marketing efforts, including a kickass logo.

The only thing I like about RedHat is Ansible, which was purchased by
RedHat, not created by RedHat., which will hopefully continue to exist
and thrive because it's awesome, regardless of all this bureaucracy garbage.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Jay Lozier via Ale
The end of Red Hat, been nice knowing you.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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Pete Hardie via Ale
2018-10-29 00:16:35 UTC
Permalink
It's not that IBM doesn't support Linux - it's that IBM has been circling
the drain for a decade - converting to contractors, shuffling work around
to lowest-cost markets, etc.
Post by Simba via Ale
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
I disagree. IBM has been a supporter of Linux for more than a decade
now, they invented the best line of laptops ever made, which are also
great machines for Linux.
I'm not a big fan of Big Blue, but IBM has done some alright things.
Personally, I've wondered for years how RedHat continues to exist. They
sell free software for not-free prices, without offering any real value,
and their commercial software isn't as good as the free alternatives
(Debian, BSD). I'm fairly sure they have only continued to exist thanks
to millions of dollars in marketing efforts, including a kickass logo.
The only thing I like about RedHat is Ansible, which was purchased by
RedHat, not created by RedHat., which will hopefully continue to exist
and thrive because it's awesome, regardless of all this bureaucracy garbage.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Jay Lozier via Ale
The end of Red Hat, been nice knowing you.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
Post by Jay Lozier via Ale
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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_______________________________________________
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--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps
A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 00:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
I disagree. IBM has been a supporter of Linux for more than a decade
now, they invented the best line of laptops ever made, which are also
great machines for Linux.
I'm not a big fan of Big Blue, but IBM has done some alright things.
Personally, I've wondered for years how RedHat continues to exist. They
sell free software for not-free prices, without offering any real value,
and their commercial software isn't as good as the free alternatives
(Debian, BSD). I'm fairly sure they have only continued to exist thanks
to millions of dollars in marketing efforts, including a kickass logo.
I think the reasons are pretty simple. They offer support contracts. Also,
there are so many Linux distros, but independent software vendors want to
keep things simple, so they only support their software on a select few.
Also, their training and certifications are well respected. It'll be
interesting to see the direction that IBM moves the company and how this
all pans out.


The only thing I like about RedHat is Ansible, which was purchased by
Post by Simba via Ale
RedHat, not created by RedHat., which will hopefully continue to exist
and thrive because it's awesome, regardless of all this bureaucracy garbage.
Red Hat has employed some of the top kernel developers for decades. It
would be hard to name a company that has done more for Linux and open
source.
Post by Simba via Ale
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
<snip>
Leam Hall via Ale
2018-10-29 00:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Red Hat has the majority of the US DoD Linux market.
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Michael Potter via Ale
2018-10-29 00:58:28 UTC
Permalink
IBM has contributed to the Kernel as well for many years. They were the
9th largest contributor in 2015. Intel was the largest contributor by far.

I don't know how I feel about IBM buy Red Hat yet but I am open to it.
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Red Hat has the majority of the US DoD Linux market.
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Beddingfield, Allen via Ale
2018-10-29 01:00:32 UTC
Permalink
This news makes me glad that we are primarily a SUSE shop :D

Allen B.
Post by Simba via Ale
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
I disagree. IBM has been a supporter of Linux for more than a decade
now, they invented the best line of laptops ever made, which are also
great machines for Linux.
I'm not a big fan of Big Blue, but IBM has done some alright things.
Personally, I've wondered for years how RedHat continues to exist. They
sell free software for not-free prices, without offering any real value,
and their commercial software isn't as good as the free alternatives
(Debian, BSD). I'm fairly sure they have only continued to exist thanks
to millions of dollars in marketing efforts, including a kickass logo.
The only thing I like about RedHat is Ansible, which was purchased by
RedHat, not created by RedHat., which will hopefully continue to exist
and thrive because it's awesome, regardless of all this bureaucracy garbage.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Jay Lozier via Ale
The end of Red Hat, been nice knowing you.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider of
open source cloud software, announced today that the companies have
reached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all of the
issued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per share in
cash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately $34 billion."
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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_______________________________________________
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 05:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch
That sounds like Oracle. RIP Sun Microsystems.
Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-29 10:52:38 UTC
Permalink
IBM buys a revenue stream then squeezes the budget the produces that revenue until every one quits. So they then off-shore the workforce until the customers get fed up with crappy/non-existent service/quality and go elsewhere.

Since RedHat has huge DoD support contracts and IBM has been squeezed out from Fed contracts in the past for shady business dealing, buying RedHat leverages the support need into a blind eye for more shady business deals.

Banks are turning away from AIX and towards RedHat. So this pulls the banks back to IBM (kicking and crying).

Maybe SuSE can step up to fill the RHEL shoes. They are 1/10 the size and owned by a mixed bag tech corp. Ubuntu doesn't have/spend the cash to support a call center with a datacenter packed with every vendors hardware at half the revenue of SuSE. Debian has no resources. None of the other distros are anywhere large enough.

CentOS has a substantial following but is all volunteer. Fedora is mostly volunteer and backed by RedHat. Many upstream, very solid projects like Ovirt, FreeIPA, Gluster, (all tools I use daily), are heavily supported by RedHat. Those are the best target for IBM to cut funding for to boost that purchase. No need to extend/support a project already being sold.
Post by A. P. Garcia via Ale
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch
That sounds like Oracle. RIP Sun Microsystems.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity.
Leam Hall via Ale
2018-10-29 11:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Some CentOS folks were funded by RH.SuSE actually has/had a SLES that runs
on Z. Cool stuff.

My view, absent facts, is that RH was moving to a purely container hosting
OS. That's the only sane reason for systemd. Given some of their other
moves, I think/thought they were trying to leap frog VMWare. Now I have no
idea, but I do have friends who work there.

Leam
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
IBM buys a revenue stream then squeezes the budget the produces that
revenue until every one quits. So they then off-shore the workforce until
the customers get fed up with crappy/non-existent service/quality and go
elsewhere.
Since RedHat has huge DoD support contracts and IBM has been squeezed out
from Fed contracts in the past for shady business dealing, buying RedHat
leverages the support need into a blind eye for more shady business deals.
Banks are turning away from AIX and towards RedHat. So this pulls the
banks back to IBM (kicking and crying).
Maybe SuSE can step up to fill the RHEL shoes. They are 1/10 the size and
owned by a mixed bag tech corp. Ubuntu doesn't have/spend the cash to
support a call center with a datacenter packed with every vendors hardware
at half the revenue of SuSE. Debian has no resources. None of the other
distros are anywhere large enough.
CentOS has a substantial following but is all volunteer. Fedora is mostly
volunteer and backed by RedHat. Many upstream, very solid projects like
Ovirt, FreeIPA, Gluster, (all tools I use daily), are heavily supported by
RedHat. Those are the best target for IBM to cut funding for to boost that
purchase. No need to extend/support a project already being sold.
On October 29, 2018 1:33:49 AM EDT, "A. P. Garcia" <
Post by A. P. Garcia via Ale
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch
That sounds like Oracle. RIP Sun Microsystems.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related
and reflect authenticity.
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Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 11:33:45 UTC
Permalink
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.

Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.

Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.

To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
IBM buys a revenue stream then squeezes the budget the produces that
revenue until every one quits. So they then off-shore the workforce
until the customers get fed up with crappy/non-existent service/quality
and go elsewhere.
Since RedHat has huge DoD support contracts and IBM has been squeezed
out from Fed contracts in the past for shady business dealing, buying
RedHat leverages the support need into a blind eye for more shady
business deals.
Banks are turning away from AIX and towards RedHat. So this pulls the
banks back to IBM (kicking and crying).
Maybe SuSE can step up to fill the RHEL shoes. They are 1/10 the size
and owned by a mixed bag tech corp. Ubuntu doesn't have/spend the cash
to support a call center with a datacenter packed with every vendors
hardware at half the revenue of SuSE. Debian has no resources. None of
the other distros are anywhere large enough.
CentOS has a substantial following but is all volunteer. Fedora is
mostly volunteer and backed by RedHat. Many upstream, very solid
projects like Ovirt, FreeIPA, Gluster, (all tools I use daily), are
heavily supported by RedHat. Those are the best target for IBM to cut
funding for to boost that purchase. No need to extend/support a project
already being sold.
On October 29, 2018 1:33:49 AM EDT, "A. P. Garcia"
Agreed. IBM kills everything they touch 
That sounds like Oracle. RIP Sun Microsystems.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related
and reflect authenticity.
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 11:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
The way I see it, Linux is Linux. It's kind of strange to claim that one is
more stable than another. And it's poor form to make such a claim without
offering some sort of evidence.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 12:06:33 UTC
Permalink
That is fair.

What I suppose I meant is that Debian's package policies are more mature
and support long term stability in systems better than the other
distributions. Also, recovering from packaging related issues is
tremendously simple with apt.

It's true that SuSE or Arch or others could work just as well, however
there are costs involved with support and we're talking about government
agencies and public dollars, so using a system like Debian that is more
user friendly, widely adopted, and more likely to offer low-cost support
options from competent contracting firms dedicated to that purpose is a
consideration.

Also, I think philosophy matters. Debian's philosophy of freedom and
free software is most aware of the role computers and software play in
improving everyone's lives, as opposed to lining the pockets of
corporate executives.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Simba via Ale
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
The way I see it, Linux is Linux. It's kind of strange to claim that one
is more stable than another. And it's poor form to make such a claim
without offering some sort of evidence.
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Leam Hall via Ale
2018-10-29 12:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
That is fair.
What I suppose I meant is that Debian's package policies are more mature
and support long term stability in systems better than the other
distributions. Also, recovering from packaging related issues is
tremendously simple with apt.
Not really. RPM based systems recover well, have done so for years. Debian
has very little third party vendor support, and that's what sells. Most
companies don't by RHEL/SLES/HP-UX/Solaris, they by a platform for
"Application X" and that platform must have backup compatibility with
Enterprise Backup Application "A" and monitoring support for Enterprise
Tool "B". That's why RHEL, and to a lesser degree in the US, SLES, win big
contracts.

Philosophy doesn't matter; functionality does.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:01:36 UTC
Permalink
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.

Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.

In a sane world we would not only be talking about servers and
specialized infrastructure but desktops as well, in fact desktops are
where the bulk of any OS deployment would take place in any government
agency.

If the government were to adopt Debian (and it should not be a
per-agency choice, that's insanity.), vendors and support would appear.
That's the nature of free market capitalism, it can adapt to shifting
markets and that happens literally all the time with government contract
opportunities.

Philosophy matters probably more than everything else.


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Philosophy doesn't matter; functionality does.
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 13:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.
Businesses don't give a whit about philosophy. They want results, for
the least short-term cost possible. For longer-term costs, that's what
insurance and support contracts are for. Defined up-front known costs
that can be budgeted and planned around.
Post by Simba via Ale
Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.
In the real world, nobody upgrades systems in-place. They are instead
replaced wholesale when the hardware reaches its end-of-life, or the
applications require more capabilities. And thanks to the rise of VMs,
relatively ancient systems are sticking around longer than ever, because
the software isn't tied to the hardware any more.. (this is especially
true with IBM!)

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:24:13 UTC
Permalink
In the real world, everything you said is wrong.

If you don't want to be wrong about everything all the time you should
avoid making sweeping generalizations about hundreds of millions or
billions of unique individual people.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.
Businesses don't give a whit about philosophy. They want results, for
the least short-term cost possible. For longer-term costs, that's what
insurance and support contracts are for. Defined up-front known costs
that can be budgeted and planned around.
Post by Simba via Ale
Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.
In the real world, nobody upgrades systems in-place. They are instead
replaced wholesale when the hardware reaches its end-of-life, or the
applications require more capabilities. And thanks to the rise of VMs,
relatively ancient systems are sticking around longer than ever, because
the software isn't tied to the hardware any more.. (this is especially
true with IBM!)
- Solomon
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 13:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
In the real world, everything you said is wrong.
[ Citation needed ]
Post by Simba via Ale
If you don't want to be wrong about everything all the time you should
avoid making sweeping generalizations about hundreds of millions or
billions of unique individual people.
Right back at you.

You seem to be confusing "the way I think things should be" with "the
way things actually are." Including blithely dismissing customer
requirements. That's not how you win business, no matter what field
you're in.

What works at a small scale is unworkable at larger scales.

Meanwhile. In my nearly twenty years in this field, I've done
consulting/contract work for about fifteen, including three of mostly
DoD-related work. Since 2013 I've worked directly for a billion-dollar
enterprise.

So forgive me for thinking I have an inkling for how large organizations
actually think and operate.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Alex Carver via Ale
2018-10-29 15:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
In the real world, everything you said is wrong.
[ Citation needed ]
Post by Simba via Ale
If you don't want to be wrong about everything all the time you should
avoid making sweeping generalizations about hundreds of millions or
billions of unique individual people.
Right back at you.
You seem to be confusing "the way I think things should be" with "the
way things actually are." Including blithely dismissing customer
requirements. That's not how you win business, no matter what field
you're in.
What works at a small scale is unworkable at larger scales.
Meanwhile. In my nearly twenty years in this field, I've done
consulting/contract work for about fifteen, including three of mostly
DoD-related work. Since 2013 I've worked directly for a billion-dollar
enterprise.
So forgive me for thinking I have an inkling for how large organizations
actually think and operate.
I've got a DOD desktop machine managed by an IT contractor. The software
gets updated on 3-6 month intervals depending on the testing complexity
while the hardware is cycled out every three years. Not every DOD
contract is so rigid that they don't upgrade or hold on tooth and nail.
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Leam Hall via Ale
2018-10-29 15:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Carver via Ale
I've got a DOD desktop machine managed by an IT contractor. The software
gets updated on 3-6 month intervals depending on the testing complexity
while the hardware is cycled out every three years. Not every DOD
contract is so rigid that they don't upgrade or hold on tooth and nail.
Sounds about right. Servers can get OS patches from the vendor on monthly
updates while applications are at the whim of the vendor.
Greg Clifton via Ale
2018-10-29 18:28:05 UTC
Permalink
I think James T. nailed it. Having spent 20+ years selling hardware,
largely to the government, and having a brother working at CENTCOM
monitoring security issues, I can verify that the question isn't so much
whether any given flavor of Linux CAN be equally or perhaps more secure
than others, but that REHL has the required security certification that few
others can afford to match. Folks in government and big business are very
risk averse and will only specify/buy the "certified" solution whether it
is more secure than others or not. If you think differently, Samba, you
evidently haven't had much experience with government purchasing agents. In
my experience they neither know nor care if there is a better or sometimes
cheaper solution, they have a list of specifications and they are going to
buy to those specifications ONLY, and 24x7x4 support is often part of those
specifications, (along with a list of similar clients you have done
business with before to even get your bid considered).

Whatever impact on the future of Linux, I see this as a "back to the
future" event or maybe a throwback to the 80's might be more accurate, to
wit, the good 'ole days are here again when "Nobody ever got fired for
buying IBM."

"Nothing new under the sun..."
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Post by Alex Carver via Ale
I've got a DOD desktop machine managed by an IT contractor. The software
gets updated on 3-6 month intervals depending on the testing complexity
while the hardware is cycled out every three years. Not every DOD
contract is so rigid that they don't upgrade or hold on tooth and nail.
Sounds about right. Servers can get OS patches from the vendor on monthly
updates while applications are at the whim of the vendor.
_______________________________________________
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 22:25:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Clifton via Ale
"Nothing new under the sun..."
s/sun/oracle/

- Solomon <ducks and runs>
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Beddingfield, Allen via Ale
2018-10-29 13:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Having worked in government IT, I can tell you the following:
1. If it doesn't come with a 24x7 support contract and formal SLA, it
won't make it to the point of serious consideration.
2. If it doesn't come with men in suits saying the proper buzzwords, it
won't get serious consideration.
3. If dedicated implementation engineers and on site contract support
staff is not available, it is a no-go.
Red Hat, SUSE, and Oracle are the only ones equipped to play in that area.

Allen B.
Post by Simba via Ale
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.
Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.
In a sane world we would not only be talking about servers and
specialized infrastructure but desktops as well, in fact desktops are
where the bulk of any OS deployment would take place in any government
agency.
If the government were to adopt Debian (and it should not be a
per-agency choice, that's insanity.), vendors and support would appear.
That's the nature of free market capitalism, it can adapt to shifting
markets and that happens literally all the time with government contract
opportunities.
Philosophy matters probably more than everything else.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Philosophy doesn't matter; functionality does.
_______________________________________________
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--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama
Office 205-348-2251
***@ua.edu
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Beddingfield, Allen via Ale
2018-10-29 13:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Support for LONG term releases,
backporting of fixes, and rigid change control.
For example: Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3? Better
start the approval process a year early... document your testing plan,
provide a tested backout plan, have adequate testing documented and
verified by the proper people, pass the change control approval process
to go into a limited subset of test systems....wait the required time
for full deployment to test systems....wait the required time for
production rollout.
Or: Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit patch? Follow a
slightly faster variation of the above process.

The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change control
requirements. These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat backport
fixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years, instead of
incrementing the version. That is why SUSE is still patching PHP 5.3.x
on SLES 11 SP4.

Allen B.
1.  If it doesn't come with a 24x7 support contract and formal SLA, it
won't make it to the point of serious consideration.
2.  If it doesn't come with men in suits saying the proper buzzwords, it
won't get serious consideration.
3.  If dedicated implementation engineers and on site contract support
staff is not available, it is a no-go.
Red Hat, SUSE, and Oracle are the only ones equipped to play in that area.
Allen B.
Post by Simba via Ale
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.
Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.
In a sane world we would not only be talking about servers and
specialized infrastructure but desktops as well, in fact desktops are
where the bulk of any OS deployment would take place in any government
agency.
If the government were to adopt Debian (and it should not be a
per-agency choice, that's insanity.), vendors and support would appear.
That's the nature of free market capitalism, it can adapt to shifting
markets and that happens literally all the time with government contract
opportunities.
Philosophy matters probably more than everything else.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Philosophy doesn't matter; functionality does.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama
Office 205-348-2251
***@ua.edu
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
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Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beddingfield, Allen via Ale
For example: Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3?
Better start the approval process a year early...
This is what I mean by our government is stuck in the 1980s. That kind
of process is foolish. Whatever justification one can craft for it, it's
wrong. Zero-day vulnerabilities have proven that, repeatedly, for
decades now.

Patches need to be deployed fast. Your testing environment and process
needs to be lightweight and dynamic, and if you take longer than 30 days
to update to the current recommended stable version of _anything_, then
you're incompetent.

There's a lot of foolish "Wisdom" in the tech world and as a result
everyone's social security numbers and E-mail addresses and home
addresses and credit card numbers and so on and so forth have become
public record.

*shrug*

You're quoting the procedures of incompetent people as if they're role
models whose examples should be followed. It's a ship of fools.


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Beddingfield, Allen via Ale
Oh, and I forgot to mention:  Support for LONG term releases,
backporting of fixes, and rigid change control.
For example:  Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3?  Better
start the approval process a year early...  document your testing plan,
provide a tested backout plan, have adequate testing documented and
verified by the proper people, pass the change control approval process
to go into a limited subset of test systems....wait the required time
for full deployment to test systems....wait the required time for
production rollout.
Or:  Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit patch? Follow a
slightly faster variation of the above process.
The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change control
requirements.  These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat backport
fixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years, instead of
incrementing the version.  That is why SUSE is still patching PHP 5.3.x
on SLES 11 SP4.
Allen B.
1.  If it doesn't come with a 24x7 support contract and formal SLA, it
won't make it to the point of serious consideration.
2.  If it doesn't come with men in suits saying the proper buzzwords,
it won't get serious consideration.
3.  If dedicated implementation engineers and on site contract support
staff is not available, it is a no-go.
Red Hat, SUSE, and Oracle are the only ones equipped to play in that area.
Allen B.
Post by Simba via Ale
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.
Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.
In a sane world we would not only be talking about servers and
specialized infrastructure but desktops as well, in fact desktops are
where the bulk of any OS deployment would take place in any government
agency.
If the government were to adopt Debian (and it should not be a
per-agency choice, that's insanity.), vendors and support would appear.
That's the nature of free market capitalism, it can adapt to shifting
markets and that happens literally all the time with government contract
opportunities.
Philosophy matters probably more than everything else.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Philosophy doesn't matter; functionality does.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 14:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Patches need to be deployed fast. Your testing environment and process
needs to be lightweight and dynamic, and if you take longer than 30 days
to update to the current recommended stable version of _anything_, then
you're incompetent.
Or the testing regimen is so comprehensive that it simply takes longer?

There is a middle ground to be had here, and one size does not fit all.
Post by Simba via Ale
You're quoting the procedures of incompetent people as if they're role
models whose examples should be followed. It's a ship of fools.
Never forget that those incompetent fools hold the purse strings to the
ship that you are trying to board. Their game, their rules.

"Process is how you get consistent results out of medoicre people"

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 14:33:30 UTC
Permalink
30 days is being generous. Most simple patches could be tested and
rolled out in 48 hours in a well run environment. 30 days IS for the
complicated ones.

And hey something we can agree upon, one big problem with our government
with regards to technology is the lack of an adequate budget. Many
agencies, the IRS for example, have cited that as playing a significant
role in their inability to modernize.



Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
Patches need to be deployed fast. Your testing environment and process
needs to be lightweight and dynamic, and if you take longer than 30 days
to update to the current recommended stable version of _anything_, then
you're incompetent.
Or the testing regimen is so comprehensive that it simply takes longer?
There is a middle ground to be had here, and one size does not fit all.
Post by Simba via Ale
You're quoting the procedures of incompetent people as if they're role
models whose examples should be followed. It's a ship of fools.
Never forget that those incompetent fools hold the purse strings to the
ship that you are trying to board. Their game, their rules.
"Process is how you get consistent results out of medoicre people"
- Solomon
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 15:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
30 days is being generous. Most simple patches could be tested and
rolled out in 48 hours in a well run environment. 30 days IS for the
complicated ones.
30 days doesn't even scratch the surface for safety-critical
applications, even if no bespoke hardware is involved.

For example, the testing regimen of the last DoD project I worked on
included simulated EMP bursts as well as the usual environmental
hazards. Those tests took days to run.. after the several weeks it took
to get lab time scheduled.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 15:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Irrelevant. Every day that a vulnerable system remains unpatched is a
day that system could be compromised.

You can't go on for hours about how DoD demands rigorous standards, then
tell me that they're incapable of patching in a reasonable timeframe,
and call that competence.

I would fire everyone for not reaching that conclusion on their own, and
I would re-write the rules to prioritize technology security.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
30 days is being generous. Most simple patches could be tested and
rolled out in 48 hours in a well run environment. 30 days IS for the
complicated ones.
30 days doesn't even scratch the surface for safety-critical
applications, even if no bespoke hardware is involved.
For example, the testing regimen of the last DoD project I worked on
included simulated EMP bursts as well as the usual environmental
hazards. Those tests took days to run.. after the several weeks it took
to get lab time scheduled.
- Solomon
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 15:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Irrelevant. Every day that a vulnerable system remains unpatched is a
day that system could be compromised.
Irrelevant. Every untested change is a change that can lead to (the
wrong people) dying.

(See what I did there?)
Post by Simba via Ale
You can't go on for hours about how DoD demands rigorous standards, then
tell me that they're incapable of patching in a reasonable timeframe,
and call that competence.
*shrug* I can only speak to the DoD work that I was involved with, and
yes, we had some *very* exacting quality requirements.

Granted, that last project had no networked component, so any "security"
problem was purely physical in nature, and handled by well-armed
soldiers.

Another DoD project I worked on had an explicit requirement to handle
the device being physically compromised. We had to scrub the hardware
and software of any identifying marks (including copyright notices in
all third-party software!) that could help lead back to anyone who
(in)directly worked on it. Because pissed-off cartels have been known
to express their displeasure in spectacularly violent ways.
Post by Simba via Ale
I would fire everyone for not reaching that conclusion on their own, and
I would re-write the rules to prioritize technology security.
Fortunately for the rest of us, you are not in charge.

That said, good luck.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
James Taylor via Ale
2018-10-29 14:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Just an added note about meeting DoD requirements.
SUSE and redHat spend a lot of time upfront baking DoD security specifications into each of their releases before they are allowed out the door.
Government, and most commercial customers care about that.
I don’t always use commercial versions of linux for customer solutions, but when I'm working with clients in to regulated spaces, that doesn’t fly far.
-jt
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Support for LONG term releases, backporting of fixes, and rigid change control.
For example: Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3? Better start the approval process a year early... document your testing plan, provide a tested backout plan, have adequate testing documented and verified by the proper people, pass the change control approval process to go into a limited subset of test systems....wait the required time for full deployment to test systems....wait the required time for production rollout.
Or: Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit patch? Follow a slightly faster variation of the above process.
The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change control requirements. These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat backport fixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years, instead of incrementing the version. That is why SUSE is still patching PHP 5.3.x on SLES 11 SP4.
Allen B.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 14:40:32 UTC
Permalink
That's been true for years but I think it's less so these days. Debian
has a lot of support in the commercial sector. Like I said it's got
something similar to SELinux but I don't recall, someone in #debian on
freenode explained it to me like a year ago.

Personally, I really dislike when someone in the commercial sector
believes they have to use RHEL because it's "the secure one", and I try
to encourage them to use Debian instead, because the stable branch is
plenty secure.

of course I realize I'm saying this right after a vulnerability was
spotted in SystemD but it's been patched at the source and i'm confident
a fix will be coming down the pipe soon.

https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2018-15688

We could argue forever over which distro is most secure.. who's got the
time.


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by James Taylor via Ale
Just an added note about meeting DoD requirements.
SUSE and redHat spend a lot of time upfront baking DoD security
specifications into each of their releases before they are allowed out
the door.
Government, and most commercial customers care about that. 
I don’t always use commercial versions of linux for customer solutions,
but when I'm working with clients in to regulated spaces, that doesn’t
fly far.
-jt
 
Oh, and I forgot to mention:  Support for LONG term releases,
backporting of fixes, and rigid change control.
For example:  Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3?
 Better start the approval process a year early...  document your
testing plan, provide a tested backout plan, have adequate testing
documented and verified by the proper people, pass the change control
approval process to go into a limited subset of test systems....wait
the required time for full deployment to test systems....wait the
required time for production rollout.
Or:  Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit patch? Follow a
slightly faster variation of the above process.
The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change control
requirements.  These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat backport
fixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years, instead of
incrementing the version.  That is why SUSE is still patching PHP
5.3.x on SLES 11 SP4.
Allen B.
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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h
Beddingfield, Allen via Ale
2018-10-29 14:46:54 UTC
Permalink
It isn't so much about "Security" as it is a about ability and
willingness to execute.
If "Super Mega Agency" discovers a problem that is not yet fixed with a
publicly available patch, they call up Red Hat/Oracle/SUSE, and someone
literally creates a patch for the issue especially for them, does the
requisite testing, documents it, and stands behind it. We've done this
process with SUSE multiple times as a university. We are a big enough
customer that they immediately dedicated the resources to do this.
If that occurs with Debian or something similar, what are they to do?
Take to IRC and beg a developer for help?
Allen B.
Post by Simba via Ale
That's been true for years but I think it's less so these days. Debian
has a lot of support in the commercial sector. Like I said it's got
something similar to SELinux but I don't recall, someone in #debian on
freenode explained it to me like a year ago.
Personally, I really dislike when someone in the commercial sector
believes they have to use RHEL because it's "the secure one", and I try
to encourage them to use Debian instead, because the stable branch is
plenty secure.
of course I realize I'm saying this right after a vulnerability was
spotted in SystemD but it's been patched at the source and i'm confident
a fix will be coming down the pipe soon.
https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2018-15688
We could argue forever over which distro is most secure.. who's got the
time.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by James Taylor via Ale
Just an added note about meeting DoD requirements.
SUSE and redHat spend a lot of time upfront baking DoD security
specifications into each of their releases before they are allowed out
the door.
Government, and most commercial customers care about that.
I don’t always use commercial versions of linux for customer solutions,
but when I'm working with clients in to regulated spaces, that doesn’t
fly far.
-jt
Oh, and I forgot to mention:  Support for LONG term releases,
backporting of fixes, and rigid change control.
For example:  Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3?
 Better start the approval process a year early...  document your
testing plan, provide a tested backout plan, have adequate testing
documented and verified by the proper people, pass the change control
approval process to go into a limited subset of test systems....wait
the required time for full deployment to test systems....wait the
required time for production rollout.
Or:  Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit patch? Follow a
slightly faster variation of the above process.
The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change control
requirements.  These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat backport
fixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years, instead of
incrementing the version.  That is why SUSE is still patching PHP
5.3.x on SLES 11 SP4.
Allen B.
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Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama
Office 205-348-2251
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Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-29 14:51:26 UTC
Permalink
AppArmour is the Debian tool. It similar to selinux in that it hardens
application processes to accessing only the sockets and files they need
to function (blocking 0-day privilege escalations). It does NOT support
anything like MLS (multi-level security) or MGS (Multi-Group Security)
that enforces user, group, process, file, and application communication
based on defined relationships and enforced access control and logging
of all access and data movement.
Post by Simba via Ale
That's been true for years but I think it's less so these days.
Debianhas a lot of support in the commercial sector. Like I said it's
gotsomething similar to SELinux but I don't recall, someone in
#debian onfreenode explained it to me like a year ago.
Personally, I really dislike when someone in the commercial
sectorbelieves they have to use RHEL because it's "the secure one",
and I tryto encourage them to use Debian instead, because the stable
branch isplenty secure.
of course I realize I'm saying this right after a vulnerability
wasspotted in SystemD but it's been patched at the source and i'm
confidenta fix will be coming down the pipe soon.
https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2018-15688
We could argue forever over which distro is most secure.. who's got
thetime.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.nethttps://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"On 10/29/18 10:26 AM, James
Just an added note about meeting DoD requirements.SUSE and redHat
spend a lot of time upfront baking DoD securityspecifications into
each of their releases before they are allowed outthe
door.Government, and most commercial customers care about that. I
don’t always use commercial versions of linux for customer
solutions,but when I'm working with clients in to regulated spaces,
that doesn’tfly far.-jt
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Support for LONG term
Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3? Better start the
approval process a year early... document yourtesting plan, provide
a tested backout plan, have adequate testingdocumented and verified
by the proper people, pass the change controlapproval process to go
into a limited subset of test systems....waitthe required time for
full deployment to test systems....wait therequired time for
production rollout.Or: Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit
patch? Follow aslightly faster variation of the above process.
The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change
controlrequirements. These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat
backportfixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years,
instead ofincrementing the version. That is why SUSE is still
patching PHP5.3.x on SLES 11 SP4.
Allen B.
_______________________________________________Ale mailing
ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
_______________________________________________Ale mailing
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--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-30 01:14:01 UTC
Permalink
The Center for Internet Security publishes some really good hardening
guides for various operating systems, software, and devices. Their guide
for Red Hat Enterprise Linux mandates the use of selinux.

https://www.cisecurity.org/benchmark/red_hat_linux/
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
AppArmour is the Debian tool.
It similar to selinux in that it hardens application processes to
accessing only the sockets and files they need to function (blocking 0-day
privilege escalations). It does NOT support anything like MLS (multi-level
security) or MGS (Multi-Group Security) that enforces user, group, process,
file, and application communication based on defined relationships and
enforced access control and logging of all access and data movement.
That's been true for years but I think it's less so these days. Debian
has a lot of support in the commercial sector. Like I said it's got
something similar to SELinux but I don't recall, someone in #debian on
freenode explained it to me like a year ago.
Personally, I really dislike when someone in the commercial sector
believes they have to use RHEL because it's "the secure one", and I try
to encourage them to use Debian instead, because the stable branch is
plenty secure.
of course I realize I'm saying this right after a vulnerability was
spotted in SystemD but it's been patched at the source and i'm confident
a fix will be coming down the pipe soon.
https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2018-15688
We could argue forever over which distro is most secure.. who's got the
time.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Just an added note about meeting DoD requirements.
SUSE and redHat spend a lot of time upfront baking DoD security
specifications into each of their releases before they are allowed out
the door.
Government, and most commercial customers care about that.
I don’t always use commercial versions of linux for customer solutions,
but when I'm working with clients in to regulated spaces, that doesn’t
fly far.
-jt
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Support for LONG term releases,
backporting of fixes, and rigid change control.
For example: Want to upgrade from version 12.2 to version 12.3?
Better start the approval process a year early... document your
testing plan, provide a tested backout plan, have adequate testing
documented and verified by the proper people, pass the change control
approval process to go into a limited subset of test systems....wait
the required time for full deployment to test systems....wait the
required time for production rollout.
Or: Want to apply an in-the-wild zero day exploit patch? Follow a
slightly faster variation of the above process.
The Debian or Ubuntu model will not pass the change control
requirements. These are the reasons that SUSE and Red Hat backport
fixes into an old version of a package for seven+ years, instead of
incrementing the version. That is why SUSE is still patching PHP
5.3.x on SLES 11 SP4.
Allen B.
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--
James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a
jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a
dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark
Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
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Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:36:48 UTC
Permalink
I do some work in that sector, in fact I work on a small DoD contract. I
know that your 3 rules are not true all of the time. The government
awards contracts for all kinds of things to all sorts of small
businesses, all of the time. It's very common.

It would be naive to say IBM is crooked but Oracle isn't. They're all
the exact same f'ing culture. Corporations are obligated by law to make
choices which benefit their shareholders.

Look at Apple, they started out being "Different than IBM" and now they
are exactly the same. Oracle and Sun and Redhat and IBM and all the
other old tech brands are all the same. They all advertise their
products in the exact same ways, using the exact same buzzwords.

I hate it, if that wasn't obvious already ;) It's all very boring and
lacks imagination.


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
1.  If it doesn't come with a 24x7 support contract and formal SLA, it
won't make it to the point of serious consideration.
2.  If it doesn't come with men in suits saying the proper buzzwords, it
won't get serious consideration.
3.  If dedicated implementation engineers and on site contract support
staff is not available, it is a no-go.
Red Hat, SUSE, and Oracle are the only ones equipped to play in that area.
Allen B.
Post by Simba via Ale
With all due respect, I can't take your opinions seriously when you say
philosophy doesn't matter. Our entire nation was built on philosophy.
Our government serves the people and purposes of that nation.
Anyhow there's additional reasons, for example the ease of upgrading
Debian based systems.
In a sane world we would not only be talking about servers and
specialized infrastructure but desktops as well, in fact desktops are
where the bulk of any OS deployment would take place in any government
agency.
If the government were to adopt Debian (and it should not be a
per-agency choice, that's insanity.), vendors and support would appear.
That's the nature of free market capitalism, it can adapt to shifting
markets and that happens literally all the time with government contract
opportunities.
Philosophy matters probably more than everything else.
Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Leam Hall via Ale
Philosophy doesn't matter; functionality does.
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 13:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Look at Apple, they started out being "Different than IBM" and now they
are exactly the same. Oracle and Sun and Redhat and IBM and all the
other old tech brands are all the same. They all advertise their
products in the exact same ways, using the exact same buzzwords.
I hate it, if that wasn't obvious already ;) It's all very boring and
lacks imagination.
Actually, back in the late 90s or early 2000s, IBM got slapped on the wrist
for hiring graffiti artists to paint "Peace, Love, and Linux" signs in San
Francisco.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Marketing tricks. They're all the same.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Simba via Ale
Look at Apple, they started out being "Different than IBM" and now they
are exactly the same. Oracle and Sun and Redhat and IBM and all the
other old tech brands are all the same. They all advertise their
products in the exact same ways, using the exact same buzzwords.
I hate it, if that wasn't obvious already ;) It's all very boring and
lacks imagination.
Actually, back in the late 90s or early 2000s, IBM got slapped on the
wrist for hiring graffiti artists to paint "Peace, Love, and Linux"
signs in San Francisco.
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 14:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Marketing tricks. They're all the same.
Not really. It was clever and imaginative, and IBM had to pay the city of
San Francisco a $100,000 fine. In other words, it's a counterexample to the
same old, same old that you were describing.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 14:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Don't be so naive, it's a marketing gimmick. They probably had board
meetings and consulted with lawyers about the potential fines well
before it was approved.

We're talking about F'ing EYE BEE EM ffs. They're not _hippies_.

I mean come on... ell o ell.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Simba via Ale
Marketing tricks. They're all the same.
Not really. It was clever and imaginative, and IBM had to pay the city
of San Francisco a $100,000 fine. In other words, it's a counterexample
to the same old, same old that you were describing.
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 14:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Don't be so naive, it's a marketing gimmick. They probably had board
meetings and consulted with lawyers about the potential fines well
before it was approved.
We're talking about F'ing EYE BEE EM ffs. They're not _hippies_.
I mean come on... ell o ell.
lol. I'm going to tell you something, and you can choose to believe it or
not believe it. It doesn't really matter. I know that what you're saying
about board meetings and attorney consultations is false. How do I know
this? Simple. It was my idea.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 14:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Yeah I don't believe you. Sorry.

Got any historic evidence? blog posts, tech journal news, etc, that
mentions your name?

Anyway these things are marketing tricks, even without the board
meetings. If there weren't meetings for that particular project, there
were meetings for public image outreach and so on. It's all a dog and
pony show.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Simba via Ale
Don't be so naive, it's a marketing gimmick. They probably had board
meetings and consulted with lawyers about the potential fines well
before it was approved.
We're talking about F'ing EYE BEE EM ffs. They're not _hippies_.
I mean come on... ell o ell.
lol. I'm going to tell you something, and you can choose to believe it
or not believe it. It doesn't really matter. I know that what you're
saying about board meetings and attorney consultations is false. How do
I know this? Simple. It was my idea.
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 14:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Yeah I don't believe you. Sorry.
Got any historic evidence? blog posts, tech journal news, etc, that
mentions your name?
Anyway these things are marketing tricks, even without the board
meetings. If there weren't meetings for that particular project, there
were meetings for public image outreach and so on. It's all a dog and
pony show.
Here's the story. Around the time this happened, I was corresponding with
Richard Stallman about public outreach. In the course of our emails, he
looped in a woman who was doing some free marketing consulting for him. I
don't know who she was or whom she worked for. The original idea I had was
some artwork that would resemble the colorful murals that you see in inner
cities. It would depict happy people and GNUs, and the message would be
peace, love, and GNU's Not Unix!

Within weeks of my suggestion, the graffiti incident in San Francisco took
place. Coincidence? Maybe. I would have to dig up those old emails to
corroborate the timing. Even better, I could find out who that woman was
and whether she worked in any capacity for IBM marketing. But you know
what? I really don't care. It's entirely plausible that it was just a
coincidence, and I've never tried to take credit for it before. It doesn't
really matter to me.
A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 14:49:59 UTC
Permalink
PS Here is another one of my ideas:
https://www.gnu.org/graphics/jesus-cartoon.html
Post by A. P. Garcia via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
Yeah I don't believe you. Sorry.
Got any historic evidence? blog posts, tech journal news, etc, that
mentions your name?
Anyway these things are marketing tricks, even without the board
meetings. If there weren't meetings for that particular project, there
were meetings for public image outreach and so on. It's all a dog and
pony show.
Here's the story. Around the time this happened, I was corresponding with
Richard Stallman about public outreach. In the course of our emails, he
looped in a woman who was doing some free marketing consulting for him. I
don't know who she was or whom she worked for. The original idea I had was
some artwork that would resemble the colorful murals that you see in inner
cities. It would depict happy people and GNUs, and the message would be
peace, love, and GNU's Not Unix!
Within weeks of my suggestion, the graffiti incident in San Francisco took
place. Coincidence? Maybe. I would have to dig up those old emails to
corroborate the timing. Even better, I could find out who that woman was
and whether she worked in any capacity for IBM marketing. But you know
what? I really don't care. It's entirely plausible that it was just a
coincidence, and I've never tried to take credit for it before. It doesn't
really matter to me.
Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-29 14:52:58 UTC
Permalink
BWAHAHAHA!!!!!
Post by A. P. Garcia via Ale
https://www.gnu.org/graphics/jesus-cartoon.html
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:41 AM A. P. Garcia <
Post by A. P. Garcia via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
Yeah I don't believe you. Sorry.
Got any historic evidence? blog posts, tech journal news, etc, that
mentions your name?
Anyway these things are marketing tricks, even without the board
meetings. If there weren't meetings for that particular project, there
were meetings for public image outreach and so on. It's all a dog and
pony show.
Here's the story. Around the time this happened, I was
corresponding with Richard Stallman about public outreach. In the
course of our emails, he looped in a woman who was doing some free
marketing consulting for him. I don't know who she was or whom she
worked for. The original idea I had was some artwork that would
resemble the colorful murals that you see in inner cities. It would
depict happy people and GNUs, and the message would be peace, love,
and GNU's Not Unix!
Within weeks of my suggestion, the graffiti incident in San
Francisco took place. Coincidence? Maybe. I would have to dig up
those old emails to corroborate the timing. Even better, I could
find out who that woman was and whether she worked in any capacity
for IBM marketing. But you know what? I really don't care. It's
entirely plausible that it was just a coincidence, and I've never
tried to take credit for it before. It doesn't really matter to me.
_______________________________________________Ale mailing
ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
Steve Litt via Ale
2018-10-30 04:53:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 07:59:32 -0400
Post by A. P. Garcia via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the
maintainers of the software. Support could come from any
trustworthy American technology firm.
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as
well as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full
capabilities in terms of applications and security. It's simply the
best choice.
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because
they offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
The way I see it, Linux is Linux. It's kind of strange to claim that
one is more stable than another. And it's poor form to make such a
claim without offering some sort of evidence.
Some distros have systemd, some don't. Some distros glom on ten layers
of abstraction to accommodate the most newbie user, while others play
it closer to the metal. Some distros crash and burn regularly, and some
are rock solid. Oh, you could change Ubuntu into Slackware or vice
versa, but it would take you weeks of work.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 12:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
This is clearly not true. I remember one particular instance where Linux
virtual machines were remounting their file systems read only under heavy
IO load in vsphere. VMware gave us a patch for the SCSI driver before it
was available upstream. Only a company that employs some good kernel
programmers would be able to do that.
DJ-Pfulio via Ale
2018-10-29 12:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
DoD needs a throat to choke. They want 1 phone call to have someone
on-site, working the issue. This is a requirement for huge corporations
as well. They don't want to become experts in Linux. They want a
solution that someone else manages.
Post by Simba via Ale
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
Who can support all the DoD locations? Simba's Linux Shoppe?
The only other serious option would be from Oracle. SuSE isn't large
enough.
Post by Simba via Ale
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.
IYO. Many people would disagree.
SELinux is a requirement for many DoD systems. How stable is that on
Debian? I honestly don't know.
Post by Simba via Ale
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
What? It comes down to having an organization that can solve the issues
for the client. There are few other Linux support organizations with
the expertise across the entire Linux stack to solve issues.

Running a WP web server doesn't make someone an expert at kernel drivers
or the opposite.
In complex environments, understanding all the other complex moving
parts and those interactions is non-trivial. Tracking down some SAN
connection and compatibility issues isn't something most organizations
can handle.

Here's hoping that IBM doesn't do to Redhat like what Oracle did to Sun
Microsystems.

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Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
DoD needs a throat to choke. They want 1 phone call to have someone
on-site, working the issue. This is a requirement for huge corporations
as well. They don't want to become experts in Linux. They want a
solution that someone else manages.
Irrelevant. The go-to person would exist, in any scenario.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
Who can support all the DoD locations? Simba's Linux Shoppe?
The only other serious option would be from Oracle. SuSE isn't large
enough.
Yes! Are you kidding? That's my profession, I could hope to be so lucky
as to land a contract like that. I'd be set for years.

I think maybe you don't understand how American capitalism works :)
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.
IYO. Many people would disagree.
SELinux is a requirement for many DoD systems. How stable is that on
Debian? I honestly don't know.
SELinux is overrated, Debian has something similar, and also SELinux can
be installed on Debian, however my experience with that is limited so I
can't speak on it.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
What? It comes down to having an organization that can solve the issues
for the client. There are few other Linux support organizations with
the expertise across the entire Linux stack to solve issues.
You won't change my mind on this. It's 2018, and technology moves fast.
Our government doesn't, which is a serious national weakness, and one
that could be easily fixed if the right people were making the decisions
instead of 60 year old powermongers who don't know how to use computers
and are in the pockets of software corporations like Microsoft.

When the government awards a contract to a Microsoft or a Redhat, that
says to me that the government is still living in the 1980s or 1990s and
the wrong people are making the decisions. They don't award contracts to
those corporations because they're the right choice, they do it because
they're ignorant and they suffer from the same issue as many consumers,
"I've heard of that brand". That is not competent decision making.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Running a WP web server doesn't make someone an expert at kernel drivers
or the opposite.
In complex environments, understanding all the other complex moving
parts and those interactions is non-trivial. Tracking down some SAN
connection and compatibility issues isn't something most organizations
can handle.
I think you don't have any idea just how many companies exist that do
exactly those kinds of things. They're not all huge, in fact most of
them are probably tiny. That doesn't mean they couldn't scale up to meet
the needs of the contract. With capable leadership and a competent
workforce anything is possible. Those things exist in the market.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Here's hoping that IBM doesn't do to Redhat like what Oracle did to Sun
Microsystems.
Sun Who?

j/k ;)


Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 13:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
Yes! Are you kidding? That's my profession, I could hope to be so lucky
as to land a contract like that. I'd be set for years.
Are you capable of scaling to handle a client with thousands of
widely disparate users and systems? With what kind of SLA?

Meanwhile, the DoD is several *million* users & systems, and operates in
environments where stuff working (or not) determine if our people
(or theirs) die.
Post by Simba via Ale
I think maybe you don't understand how American capitalism works :)
Right back at ya. :)
Post by Simba via Ale
SELinux is overrated, Debian has something similar, and also SELinux can
be installed on Debian, however my experience with that is limited so I
can't speak on it.
Be careful, "overrated" or not, it's still a hard customer requirement.

Folks go to jail (or get shot!) for trying to do things SELinux that is
intended to prevent. The DoD takes data security *very* seriously.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 13:45:26 UTC
Permalink
What is it that you believe "scaling" is?

It's hiring people and buying equipment.

I personally have the experience and skills and knowledge required to do
it. I'm not saying everyone does, but I do, and I know for a fact
there's thousands of equally capable folks sprinkled all over this great
nation.

Seriously man are you trolling or what? Do you think that the world is
sitting still in some kind of perpetual stasis? You think people can't
be hired, or change employment, based on the conditions in the
marketplace? I'm trying to say your lack of understanding on this
boggles my mind.

The job market is in constant flux. People are always shifting around to
meet the needs of the moment. People gain experience and move up their
career ladders, and they're replaced by fresh meat out of high school
and college.. and this is going on all the time, every day. It's going
on right now, as we're having this conversation.

How do you think anything gets done? It's not magic, it's billions of
tiny shifting cogs.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Solomon Peachy via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
Yes! Are you kidding? That's my profession, I could hope to be so lucky
as to land a contract like that. I'd be set for years.
Are you capable of scaling to handle a client with thousands of
widely disparate users and systems? With what kind of SLA?
Meanwhile, the DoD is several *million* users & systems, and operates in
environments where stuff working (or not) determine if our people
(or theirs) die.
Post by Simba via Ale
I think maybe you don't understand how American capitalism works :)
Right back at ya. :)
Post by Simba via Ale
SELinux is overrated, Debian has something similar, and also SELinux can
be installed on Debian, however my experience with that is limited so I
can't speak on it.
Be careful, "overrated" or not, it's still a hard customer requirement.
Folks go to jail (or get shot!) for trying to do things SELinux that is
intended to prevent. The DoD takes data security *very* seriously.
- Solomon
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A. P. Garcia via Ale
2018-10-29 14:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
What is it that you believe "scaling" is?
It's hiring people and buying equipment.
I personally have the experience and skills and knowledge required to do
it. I'm not saying everyone does, but I do, and I know for a fact
there's thousands of equally capable folks sprinkled all over this great
nation.
Seriously man are you trolling or what? Do you think that the world is
sitting still in some kind of perpetual stasis? You think people can't
be hired, or change employment, based on the conditions in the
marketplace? I'm trying to say your lack of understanding on this
boggles my mind.
The job market is in constant flux. People are always shifting around to
meet the needs of the moment. People gain experience and move up their
career ladders, and they're replaced by fresh meat out of high school
and college.. and this is going on all the time, every day. It's going
on right now, as we're having this conversation.
How do you think anything gets done? It's not magic, it's billions of
tiny shifting cogs.
So what you're saying is, you're basically selling vaporware.
Simba via Ale
2018-10-29 14:05:37 UTC
Permalink
No that's not accurate.

You're selling the competence of yourself and your business model and
procedures. Sometimes that comes from big corporations, but it doesn't
have to and the government is not scared of awarding contracts to
smaller organizations, they do it all the time. There's probably a
website somewhere that lists such things.. if there isn't there should be.

Simba Lion - https://tailpuff.net
https://keybase.io/simbalion

"Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
Post by Simba via Ale
What is it that you believe "scaling" is?
It's hiring people and buying equipment.
I personally have the experience and skills and knowledge required to do
it. I'm not saying everyone does, but I do, and I know for a fact
there's thousands of equally capable folks sprinkled all over this great
nation.
Seriously man are you trolling or what? Do you think that the world is
sitting still in some kind of perpetual stasis? You think people can't
be hired, or change employment, based on the conditions in the
marketplace? I'm trying to say your lack of understanding on this
boggles my mind.
The job market is in constant flux. People are always shifting around to
meet the needs of the moment. People gain experience and move up their
career ladders, and they're replaced by fresh meat out of high school
and college.. and this is going on all the time, every day. It's going
on right now, as we're having this conversation.
How do you think anything gets done? It's not magic, it's billions of
tiny shifting cogs.
So what you're saying is, you're basically selling vaporware.
_______________________________________________
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***@ale.org
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
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Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 14:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simba via Ale
What is it that you believe "scaling" is?
It's hiring people and buying equipment.
Which takes money. And a non-trivial amount of *time*.

This is especially true if you need niche skills.

One recent vacancy I was involved in filling took six months to merely
find *one* mostly-competent person worth calling back, in one of the
larger metro areas in the country.
Post by Simba via Ale
Seriously man are you trolling or what? Do you think that the world is
sitting still in some kind of perpetual stasis? You think people can't
be hired, or change employment, based on the conditions in the
marketplace? I'm trying to say your lack of understanding on this
boggles my mind.
Do you seriously believe folks change jobs on whim? That relocation is
instantaneous and new folks can be 100% productive on day one? That an
organization can pivot just as easily with 5000, 500, 50, or even 5
people as a sole proprietership?

How do you obtain the capital needed to grow past each stage?

How do you make payroll when a contract negotiation unexpectedly drags
out, or there's a delay in payment due to budget sequestration or
disputes over what was delivered vs requirements?

As any organization grows, it necessarily gets more conservative and
less risk-adverse. Predictiblity becomes the most important
consideration, even over higher rates of (potential) return.

You know, kind of like the bonds vs stocks and early vs
close-to-retirement investment strategies.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Jeff Hubbs via Ale
2018-10-30 02:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Wow, this sure exploded.

I did federal IT for the first twelve years of my career - starting in
1986 (DoD/DoE). I've been a federal contractor and subcontractor in the
years since, and for the past several years I've had a view from the
sidelines at how CDC IT goes.

1980s DoD was a place where IT feds were expected to know what they were
doing; we ran and worked with the systems. A guy I worked with
identified a bug in VMS and dug through the source code on microfilm
(yes, we paid big $ to DEC for that) to run it down. I worked with the
local DEC field office to get repairs and updates done, but anything shy
of what their techs *had* to be called for, I was on the hook for
figuring out and/or fixing. As an aside, I think the most stunt-geeky
thing I ever did was to troubleshoot a dead disk controller (which was a
unit the size of a mini-fridge) by opening it up and discovering that a
paper sticker on an airflow sensor had worked loose and covered up the
inlet hole, making it think the blower had failed and shut down the
power supply.

We had fulltime on-site contractors in DoD, but 1) we outnumbered them
overwhelmingly 2) they were there for specific reasons, like as tech
experts on their employer's arcane or bespoke products. In DoE, the
circumstances were totally reversed: the federal overseers were greatly
outnumbered by contractors and the contractors didn't necessarily
appreciate being overseen very much. The more of an SME you were as a
fed, the more you were actually rather perceived as a threat, by and large.

The biggest difference between the way IT went in 1980s DoD and later on
was that the hardware, the OS, the compilers, much of the application
software, and most of the peripherals were all yoked together with the
vendor. It made a certain sense to have local support offices and pay
the vendors tons of money because the IT vendors foisted that scenario
on everyone. Most of the time, your vendor would have been IBM, DEC, HP,
Control Data, or DG. Maybe some Pr1me. I was still at DoD when SGI/Irix
dropped.

Then IT changed in four vitally important ways. First, hardware became
more commoditized, first with vendor-agnostic hardware/comm standards
(e.g., ISA/EISA, SCSI, Ethernet, TCP/IP) and then x86 hardware that
could run completely different OSses (the first x86 server hardware I
ever saw was badged Banyan to go with their excellent network OS, which
IIRC was based on a Unix variant called Interactive); hand in hand with
this was an explosion of application software vendors. Second (and
later), F/OSS made x86 hardware useful without having to open anyone's
pursestrings. Third: the sheer spread and democratization of computing
in industry, academia, and the home. Fourth: IT became like what
/Frampton Comes Alive/ did to the music industry; all of a sudden there
was Procter-&-Gamble-grade money to be made and perhaps more than any
other firm, Microsoft amplified revenue off their meager and creaky
offerings to previously unthinkable levels.

What I got pounded into me in federal IT was that you were supposed to -
actually, you were *duty-bound* to - do as much as you possibly can for
as little money as possible. This meant that if do to a given thing with
IBM cost X but to do that same thing with DEC cost 0.2X, then you darn
well had better go DEC...or, if yet another vendor could get you there
for 0.1X, then that's what you did. The federal competitive procurement
system was supposed to be designed to formalize that process so that the
various federal agencies were assiduously effective "stewards of
Taxpayer money" (yes, we'd capitalize that "T;" in recent years I have
had to train myself to stop capitalizing the "F" in "federal," which is
in no layperson's style guide anywhere but is routine within
government). That was the ideal anyway; the reality fell far short of
that, especially after those three big changes I alluded to above. For
one thing, federal policies drove the ever-increasing tendency to
contract out more and more of federal work across the board - generally
at increased cost to the Taxpayer. The problem is that the forces of
democratization, commoditization, the F/OSS movement, and standardizing
on standards instead of standardizing on vendor products run counter to
the idea of corporations making cubic megawatt-meter-newtons of money
not just when you first buy something but every quarter thereafter. And
so even though *none of it is even the least bit necessary to run good
IT anymore*, the old pay-vendor-in-perpetuity model remains. Fewer
people would get to have memberships at the really nice golf clubs
otherwise and Jaguar franchisees would languish.

I'll tell you what spooks me: the trend to privatize/cloud-ize DoD
computing resources. One of the things we always had in mind in DoD was
that we still needed to be able to have our computing resources
functional and performing as expected *even if the US were at war or
even under active attack*. The systems I ran would have been good to go
unless or until someone delivered ordnance to my raised-floor. I needed
no permission from any outside entity to process, store, or receive
data, and as long as we had electrical power and telecomm to our crews,
depots, etc. then we were self-sufficient enough to hold up our little
end of the nation's defense. What's funny to think about is that I'd
have about as much computing power available to me now as I had then if
I took a PCI-bus 486 server and put Linux on it.

F/OSS was supposed to free us from being beholden to corporations (i.e.,
pay them once and having to keep paying them in order to obtain
permission to continue functioning) in order to create and run
high-quality computing resources. Some sectors of society have embraced
that but others, including government, by and large have not.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
Post by Simba via Ale
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
DoD needs a throat to choke. They want 1 phone call to have someone
on-site, working the issue. This is a requirement for huge corporations
as well. They don't want to become experts in Linux. They want a
solution that someone else manages.
Post by Simba via Ale
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
Who can support all the DoD locations? Simba's Linux Shoppe?
The only other serious option would be from Oracle. SuSE isn't large
enough.
Post by Simba via Ale
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.
IYO. Many people would disagree.
SELinux is a requirement for many DoD systems. How stable is that on
Debian? I honestly don't know.
Post by Simba via Ale
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
What? It comes down to having an organization that can solve the issues
for the client. There are few other Linux support organizations with
the expertise across the entire Linux stack to solve issues.
Running a WP web server doesn't make someone an expert at kernel drivers
or the opposite.
In complex environments, understanding all the other complex moving
parts and those interactions is non-trivial. Tracking down some SAN
connection and compatibility issues isn't something most organizations
can handle.
Here's hoping that IBM doesn't do to Redhat like what Oracle did to Sun
Microsystems.
_______________________________________________
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https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
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Rich Roberts via Ale
2018-10-30 13:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Fascinating insight.
Post by Jeff Hubbs via Ale
Wow, this sure exploded.
I did federal IT for the first twelve years of my career - starting in
1986 (DoD/DoE). I've been a federal contractor and subcontractor in the
years since, and for the past several years I've had a view from the
sidelines at how CDC IT goes.
1980s DoD was a place where IT feds were expected to know what they were
doing; we ran and worked with the systems. A guy I worked with identified a
bug in VMS and dug through the source code on microfilm (yes, we paid big $
to DEC for that) to run it down. I worked with the local DEC field office
to get repairs and updates done, but anything shy of what their techs *had*
to be called for, I was on the hook for figuring out and/or fixing. As an
aside, I think the most stunt-geeky thing I ever did was to troubleshoot a
dead disk controller (which was a unit the size of a mini-fridge) by
opening it up and discovering that a paper sticker on an airflow sensor had
worked loose and covered up the inlet hole, making it think the blower had
failed and shut down the power supply.
We had fulltime on-site contractors in DoD, but 1) we outnumbered them
overwhelmingly 2) they were there for specific reasons, like as tech
experts on their employer's arcane or bespoke products. In DoE, the
circumstances were totally reversed: the federal overseers were greatly
outnumbered by contractors and the contractors didn't necessarily
appreciate being overseen very much. The more of an SME you were as a fed,
the more you were actually rather perceived as a threat, by and large.
The biggest difference between the way IT went in 1980s DoD and later on
was that the hardware, the OS, the compilers, much of the application
software, and most of the peripherals were all yoked together with the
vendor. It made a certain sense to have local support offices and pay the
vendors tons of money because the IT vendors foisted that scenario on
everyone. Most of the time, your vendor would have been IBM, DEC, HP,
Control Data, or DG. Maybe some Pr1me. I was still at DoD when SGI/Irix
dropped.
Then IT changed in four vitally important ways. First, hardware became
more commoditized, first with vendor-agnostic hardware/comm standards
(e.g., ISA/EISA, SCSI, Ethernet, TCP/IP) and then x86 hardware that could
run completely different OSses (the first x86 server hardware I ever saw
was badged Banyan to go with their excellent network OS, which IIRC was
based on a Unix variant called Interactive); hand in hand with this was an
explosion of application software vendors. Second (and later), F/OSS made
the sheer spread and democratization of computing in industry, academia,
and the home. Fourth: IT became like what *Frampton Comes Alive* did to
the music industry; all of a sudden there was Procter-&-Gamble-grade money
to be made and perhaps more than any other firm, Microsoft amplified
revenue off their meager and creaky offerings to previously unthinkable
levels.
What I got pounded into me in federal IT was that you were supposed to -
actually, you were *duty-bound* to - do as much as you possibly can for as
little money as possible. This meant that if do to a given thing with IBM
cost X but to do that same thing with DEC cost 0.2X, then you darn well had
better go DEC...or, if yet another vendor could get you there for 0.1X,
then that's what you did. The federal competitive procurement system was
supposed to be designed to formalize that process so that the various
federal agencies were assiduously effective "stewards of Taxpayer money"
(yes, we'd capitalize that "T;" in recent years I have had to train myself
to stop capitalizing the "F" in "federal," which is in no layperson's style
guide anywhere but is routine within government). That was the ideal
anyway; the reality fell far short of that, especially after those three
big changes I alluded to above. For one thing, federal policies drove the
ever-increasing tendency to contract out more and more of federal work
across the board - generally at increased cost to the Taxpayer. The problem
is that the forces of democratization, commoditization, the F/OSS movement,
and standardizing on standards instead of standardizing on vendor products
run counter to the idea of corporations making cubic megawatt-meter-newtons
of money not just when you first buy something but every quarter
thereafter. And so even though *none of it is even the least bit necessary
to run good IT anymore*, the old pay-vendor-in-perpetuity model remains.
Fewer people would get to have memberships at the really nice golf clubs
otherwise and Jaguar franchisees would languish.
I'll tell you what spooks me: the trend to privatize/cloud-ize DoD
computing resources. One of the things we always had in mind in DoD was
that we still needed to be able to have our computing resources functional
and performing as expected *even if the US were at war or even under active
attack*. The systems I ran would have been good to go unless or until
someone delivered ordnance to my raised-floor. I needed no permission from
any outside entity to process, store, or receive data, and as long as we
had electrical power and telecomm to our crews, depots, etc. then we were
self-sufficient enough to hold up our little end of the nation's defense.
What's funny to think about is that I'd have about as much computing power
available to me now as I had then if I took a PCI-bus 486 server and put
Linux on it.
F/OSS was supposed to free us from being beholden to corporations (i.e.,
pay them once and having to keep paying them in order to obtain permission
to continue functioning) in order to create and run high-quality computing
resources. Some sectors of society have embraced that but others, including
government, by and large have not.
The DoD and any other government agencies should be using Debian.
DoD needs a throat to choke. They want 1 phone call to have someone
on-site, working the issue. This is a requirement for huge corporations
as well. They don't want to become experts in Linux. They want a
solution that someone else manages.
Support for the system does not have to be provided by the maintainers
of the software. Support could come from any trustworthy American
technology firm.
Who can support all the DoD locations? Simba's Linux Shoppe?
The only other serious option would be from Oracle. SuSE isn't large
enough.
Debian is the best choice because it is the most open and free, as well
as the most stable and mature, as well as offering full capabilities in
terms of applications and security. It's simply the best choice.
IYO. Many people would disagree.
SELinux is a requirement for many DoD systems. How stable is that on
Debian? I honestly don't know.
To limit government systems to inferior operating systems because they
offer commercial support from the developers is very 1980s.
What? It comes down to having an organization that can solve the issues
for the client. There are few other Linux support organizations with
the expertise across the entire Linux stack to solve issues.
Running a WP web server doesn't make someone an expert at kernel drivers
or the opposite.
In complex environments, understanding all the other complex moving
parts and those interactions is non-trivial. Tracking down some SAN
connection and compatibility issues isn't something most organizations
can handle.
Here's hoping that IBM doesn't do to Redhat like what Oracle did to Sun
Microsystems.
_______________________________________________
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
Steve Litt via Ale
2018-10-30 16:24:31 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:09:42 -0400
Post by Jeff Hubbs via Ale
I'll tell you what spooks me: the trend to privatize/cloud-ize DoD
computing resources. One of the things we always had in mind in DoD
was that we still needed to be able to have our computing resources
functional and performing as expected *even if the US were at war or
even under active attack*. The systems I ran would have been good to
go unless or until someone delivered ordnance to my raised-floor. I
needed no permission from any outside entity to process, store, or
receive data, and as long as we had electrical power and telecomm to
our crews, depots, etc. then we were self-sufficient enough to hold
up our little end of the nation's defense.
This would bother me too. I didn't know that defense computers now use
"cloud based computing." What could *possibly* go wrong?

Another thing that bothers me is that we our nation can hardly build
transistors, simple integrated circuits, and basic electronic
appliances. Heaven help us if we must go to war with our suppliers.


SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
_______________________________________________
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Steve Litt via Ale
2018-10-30 16:27:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:09:42 -0400
Post by Jeff Hubbs via Ale
F/OSS was supposed to free us from being beholden to corporations
(i.e., pay them once and having to keep paying them in order to
obtain permission to continue functioning) in order to create and run
high-quality computing resources. Some sectors of society have
embraced that but others, including government, by and large have not.
Carpetbaggers always step in to ruin something good (or not so good)
for their own profit, and there's never a dearth of people willing to
buy from the carpetbaggers.

On a positive note, *we* still have the opportunity to do things our
way, as GID (Gosh Darn Independent) people. It takes a lot of DIY, but
when it comes to our computers, F/OSS gives us the power to have it our
way.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-29 14:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Back to the beginning of this thread to escape opinions (mine
included).
For many ALE'rs, this will have no immediate impact. For those of us
using or interacting with RHEL systems, this is being viewed as a very
questionable thing for the continuity of RedHat philosophy. Doesn't
matter what people think about rpm's, systemd, elf binaries, etc,
RedHat has been a driving force in the Linux and GPL ecosystem.
Notice I said GPL and NOT open source. That was deliberate. RedHat
would take their $$$ and buy a product/process that was not GPL'ed,
clean up the codebase of all incompatible cruft, clean-room code to
backfill, and then release it under the GPL.
My greatest concern is the loss of that commitment to the GPL as a
driving force behind all things in Linux-land. IBM is married to making
money. RedHat has been married to making money with GPL software.
Satellite server was a DoD contract spec'ed to use Oracle. RedHat spent
some serious cash to disconnect Spacewalk (the community upstream
version of satellite server) from Oracle and make it work well on
PostgreSQL.
I just can't see IBM doing anything like that.
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
IBM is buying Redhat!
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider
Post by DJ-Pfulio via Ale
RHT is currently $116.68/sh.
"IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Red Hat (NYSE:RHT), the world’s leading provider
ofopen source cloud software, announced today that the companies
havereached a definitive agreement under which IBM will acquire all
of theissued and outstanding common shares of Red Hat for $190.00 per
share incash, representing a total enterprise value of approximately
$34 billion."_______________________________________________Ale
JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listi
nfo
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
Solomon Peachy via Ale
2018-10-29 15:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
My greatest concern is the loss of that commitment to the GPL as a
driving force behind all things in Linux-land. IBM is married to making
money. RedHat has been married to making money with GPL software.
...amen. Even beyond "enterprisey" stuff RH has been the by far single
largest corporate contributor to/funder of a very long tail of Free
Software. Especially the desktop stack. [1]

RH's general approach to things has been to take a very long-term
view. Bring all expertise in-house, and where none is to be found,
develop it internally because that may pay off starting in RHEL N+2.

IBM, on the other hand, repeatedly demonstrates a somewhat different
approach to planning, developing, and retaining domain expertise.

[1] I don't mean GNOME or any specific environment; but plumbing work
like graphics/sound/printing, misc integration, plus a massive
amount of funding for Fedora that goes well beyond what they need
to keep RHEL going.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Steve Litt via Ale
2018-10-30 15:59:00 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:47:05 -0400
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
For those of us
using or interacting with RHEL systems, this is being viewed as a very
questionable thing for the continuity of RedHat philosophy.
The RedHat philosophy is "obfuscate to profit." Don't take my word for
it. Read former Redhat CEO Brian Stevens admit the motive at
http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
Post by Jim Kinney via Ale
Doesn't
matter what people think about rpm's, systemd, elf binaries, etc,
RedHat has been a driving force in the Linux and GPL ecosystem.
Notice I said GPL and NOT open source. That was deliberate. RedHat
would take their $$$ and buy a product/process that was not GPL'ed,
clean up the codebase of all incompatible cruft, clean-room code to
backfill, and then release it under the GPL.
The Redhat that did that was already dead years ago.

From my perspective, one bad actor bought another.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Jim Kinney via Ale
2018-10-30 17:02:29 UTC
Permalink
For those of ususing or interacting with RHEL systems, this is being
viewed as a veryquestionable thing for the continuity of RedHat
philosophy.
The RedHat philosophy is "obfuscate to profit." Don't take my word
forit. Read former Redhat CEO Brian Stevens admit the motive at
http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
??? I don't understand your argument here. Not only does the word
"obfuscate" not appear anywhere but there's no implied obfuscation in
the interview.RedHat changed from being just a packager to also being
creator some years ago (shortly after the IPO). The purchased the LDAP
from Netscape and turned it into a GPL'ed project and a money maker for
them. They did exactly what they said they did; cleaned out the code
they could not release under the GPL and wrote GPL'ed code to replace
it. They sold support for the original package and funded the
conversion.
Yep. Sounds like dirty pool and fishy community standards to me.
Doesn'tmatter what people think about rpm's, systemd, elf binaries,
etc,RedHat has been a driving force in the Linux and GPL
ecosystem.Notice I said GPL and NOT open source. That was deliberate.
RedHatwould take their $$$ and buy a product/process that was not
GPL'ed,clean up the codebase of all incompatible cruft, clean-room
code tobackfill, and then release it under the GPL.
The Redhat that did that was already dead years ago.
Again, ?????
From my perspective, one bad actor bought another.
And lastly, ????
SteveT
Never understood why some people liked to hate on RedHat for making a
profit from the work of others yet that _is_ the standard method of how
things are done. Maybe it's that part where RedHat takes money and adds
to the pool of GPL'ed software that is confusing. It is _so_ un-
American. </snark>
Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your
Own Businesshttp://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
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