[ale] homebrew routers, castoff hardware

The Celeron system I mentioned in the other thread was originally loaded
with Void Linux. I simply got tired of doing everything the hard way.

Post by Joey Kelly
Guys,
I see posts about pfSense, dd-rwt, Ubiquiti and the like. I'm not knocking
them, but asking rather if anyone still rolls their own *nix NAT box running
on dumpster hardware, like we used to to in the old days.
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http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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Raj Wurttemberg

2017-09-22 01:44:13 UTC

Hey Joey,

I had an old Core i3 motherboard, an old eMachines case, and some spare
500GB drives laying around. The only thing I had to buy was a $40 dual
Intel NIC (I prefer the Intel NIC chipset). I loaded up pfSense on it and
it runs like a champ! It's been running for about a year now... no issues
and rock solid. My only issue with it is that it draws 114W (I have it on
an APC UPS that shows the load). I'll eventually buy a real pfSense
firewall, but for now, this is fine.

/Raj

DJ-Pfulio

2017-09-22 04:42:26 UTC

Post by Raj Wurttemberg
My only issue with it is that it draws 114W

A 10W, fanless, machine designed just for this stuff runs $144-ish and
should easily last 10 yrs. The 1 I use supports VT-x and the case is
part of the thermal design.

You can roll your own on it, if you like.
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Jim Kinney

2017-09-22 12:10:18 UTC

Yeah, $150 or less for fanless firewall box as long as 100Mb network is all that's being filtered. If it also needs to support free/openswan vpn and/or higher bandwidth, that tiny cpu will become the bottleneck or a fire hazard. :-)

For years I had a client that ran a small form factor pc with Linux OS as a firewall. The OS was on a CD. It was updated with patches as required with a new cd as I had a rather automated process to rebuild it. The manual part was handling the cd. I used rewritable media and had 2 disks, one in the firewall the other in the burner box (also the file server). When kernel and network patches came out, the master was patched, image burned and verified and email sent to swap disks. That ran for 15 years.

I've used a few of the tiny box devices. I prefer a normal pc in a small chassis.

Post by DJ-Pfulio

Post by Raj Wurttemberg
My only issue with it is that it draws 114W

A 10W, fanless, machine designed just for this stuff runs $144-ish and
should easily last 10 yrs. The 1 I use supports VT-x and the case is
part of the thermal design.
You can roll your own on it, if you like.
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DJ-Pfulio

2017-09-22 16:53:34 UTC

The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections thanks to
Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I don't run a VPN on mine - a VM easily handles that duty. I want a
router device to route and be a first defense firewall, not much else.

The performance from an old Alix to the newer APU2 systems is huge.
https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=toqa0pphhsp2e5rcjp0aal8820&topic=108231.msg612643#msg612643

Post by Jim Kinney
Yeah, $150 or less for fanless firewall box as long as 100Mb network is
all that's being filtered. If it also needs to support free/openswan vpn
and/or higher bandwidth, that tiny cpu will become the bottleneck or a
fire hazard. :-)
For years I had a client that ran a small form factor pc with Linux OS
as a firewall. The OS was on a CD. It was updated with patches as
required with a new cd as I had a rather automated process to rebuild
it. The manual part was handling the cd. I used rewritable media and had
2 disks, one in the firewall the other in the burner box (also the file
server). When kernel and network patches came out, the master was
patched, image burned and verified and email sent to swap disks. That
ran for 15 years.
I've used a few of the tiny box devices. I prefer a normal pc in a small chassis.
My only issue with it is that it draws 114W
A 10W, fanless, machine designed just for this stuff runs $144-ish and
should easily last 10 yrs. The 1 I use supports VT-x and the case is
part of the thermal design.
You can roll your own on it, if you like.
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Joey Kelly

2017-09-22 22:59:28 UTC

Post by DJ-Pfulio
The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections thanks to
Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I'm about to get a few of these for my lab. I'm working on a perpetual dev
project and had wanted to use Soekris, but they just pulled out of the US. I
started looking for a replacement and found these, the apparent Alix
successor. These things are beefier and way cheaper, so it's a win.

On a side note, there's lots of little router-style boxes out of there, but
most of them are from Red China. I shudder to think what lurks in the firmware.

--Joey

Post by DJ-Pfulio
I don't run a VPN on mine - a VM easily handles that duty. I want a
router device to route and be a first defense firewall, not much else.
The performance from an old Alix to the newer APU2 systems is huge.
https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=toqa0pphhsp2e5rcjp0aal8820&top
ic=108231.msg612643#msg612643

Post by Jim Kinney
Yeah, $150 or less for fanless firewall box as long as 100Mb network is
all that's being filtered. If it also needs to support free/openswan vpn
and/or higher bandwidth, that tiny cpu will become the bottleneck or a
fire hazard. :-)
For years I had a client that ran a small form factor pc with Linux OS
as a firewall. The OS was on a CD. It was updated with patches as
required with a new cd as I had a rather automated process to rebuild
it. The manual part was handling the cd. I used rewritable media and had
2 disks, one in the firewall the other in the burner box (also the file
server). When kernel and network patches came out, the master was
patched, image burned and verified and email sent to swap disks. That
ran for 15 years.
I've used a few of the tiny box devices. I prefer a normal pc in a small chassis.
My only issue with it is that it draws 114W
A 10W, fanless, machine designed just for this stuff runs $144-ish and
should easily last 10 yrs. The 1 I use supports VT-x and the case is
part of the thermal design.
You can roll your own on it, if you like.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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dev null zero two

2017-09-23 09:38:58 UTC

keep in mind that pfsense will require aes-ni down the line and that
Realtek nics cap out at about 700 Mb/s just switching traffic.

Sent from my mobile. Please excuse the brevity, spelling, and punctuation.

Post by DJ-Pfulio
The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections thanks to
Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I'm about to get a few of these for my lab. I'm working on a perpetual

dev

Post by Joey Kelly
project and had wanted to use Soekris, but they just pulled out of the

US. I

Post by Joey Kelly
started looking for a replacement and found these, the apparent Alix
successor. These things are beefier and way cheaper, so it's a win.
On a side note, there's lots of little router-style boxes out of there,

but

Post by Joey Kelly
most of them are from Red China. I shudder to think what lurks in the

firmware.

Post by Joey Kelly
--Joey

I've been looking at one of these though I haven't pulled the trigger
yet since they're not cheap. Not necessarily direct from China (though
one office is in Taiwan).
https://www.logicsupply.com/ml400g-12/
That's the fanless BayTrail version. They have one with fan for a bit
less (with pfSense preinstalled).
https://www.logicsupply.com/fw200b-10/
Or just use the automagic configurators to pick what you want.
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Steve Litt

2017-09-23 19:04:47 UTC

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:31:54 -0700

Post by DJ-Pfulio
The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections
thanks to Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I'm about to get a few of these for my lab. I'm working on a
perpetual dev project and had wanted to use Soekris, but they just
pulled out of the US. I started looking for a replacement and found
these, the apparent Alix successor. These things are beefier and
way cheaper, so it's a win.
On a side note, there's lots of little router-style boxes out of
there, but most of them are from Red China. I shudder to think what
lurks in the firmware.
--Joey

Not cheap is an understatement. At 15 cents/kw-hr, I spend about
$0.40/day running my guestimate 100 watt ancient box. So that's in the
neighborhood of $150/year. It would take me 4.4 years running the
recommended low power computer to break even. Would the $662 computer
last that long and still be relevant to start saving? It's a
reasonable question, although I have a feeling the answer would be
"yes".

In this calculation I assumed the low power unit uses 0 watts, because
my round figure of 100w for my old commodity box is probably low too.

For those of us living in warm climates, a factor in favor of the low
power machine is that my 100 watts creates heat which must be
removed via the rather inefficient method of air conditioning,
effectively raising the wattage I pay for due to this one computer.

I'd feel much better about this investment if it were $300.00. An
investment that pays for itself in 2 years is a no brainer, as long as
there's a reasonable expectation the equipment will last longer than
that.

Whether you buy one of these or not, it's essential to have a second
computer, probably an old commodity box, at the ready in case this one
screws up. You should also have an up to date copy of pfSense or ipCop
or OpenBSD or whatever you're using to firewall.

I love the fact that, as configured, this computer has no wifi. I
really want my wifi separate from my firewall.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Jim Kinney

2017-09-23 22:13:49 UTC

I never mix investment payoff with geek appeal or security. If the budget is too tight to run the hardware, I need to be doing other things. AC, dryer, fridge = big power. My stack of gear in the basement is worth every W in my happiness (until something breaks then it's all just a pile of garbage to be replaced asap).

I will be using that rack to provide crawlspace heating this winter:-). The floor in my den is usually quite cold.

Post by Steve Litt
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:31:54 -0700

Post by DJ-Pfulio
The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections
thanks to Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I'm about to get a few of these for my lab. I'm working on a
perpetual dev project and had wanted to use Soekris, but they just
pulled out of the US. I started looking for a replacement and found
these, the apparent Alix successor. These things are beefier and
way cheaper, so it's a win.
On a side note, there's lots of little router-style boxes out of
there, but most of them are from Red China. I shudder to think what
lurks in the firmware.
--Joey

Not cheap is an understatement. At 15 cents/kw-hr, I spend about
$0.40/day running my guestimate 100 watt ancient box. So that's in the
neighborhood of $150/year. It would take me 4.4 years running the
recommended low power computer to break even. Would the $662 computer
last that long and still be relevant to start saving? It's a
reasonable question, although I have a feeling the answer would be
"yes".
In this calculation I assumed the low power unit uses 0 watts, because
my round figure of 100w for my old commodity box is probably low too.
For those of us living in warm climates, a factor in favor of the low
power machine is that my 100 watts creates heat which must be
removed via the rather inefficient method of air conditioning,
effectively raising the wattage I pay for due to this one computer.
I'd feel much better about this investment if it were $300.00. An
investment that pays for itself in 2 years is a no brainer, as long as
there's a reasonable expectation the equipment will last longer than
that.
Whether you buy one of these or not, it's essential to have a second
computer, probably an old commodity box, at the ready in case this one
screws up. You should also have an up to date copy of pfSense or ipCop
or OpenBSD or whatever you're using to firewall.
I love the fact that, as configured, this computer has no wifi. I
really want my wifi separate from my firewall.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
_______________________________________________
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Raj Wurttemberg

2017-09-24 02:58:31 UTC

I should have said why the 114W was an issue. I'm not a "prepper" but every
now and then we have an extended power outage (i.e. Irma) and I do like to
try to limit my watts and amps for a small off-grid, solar setup I have put
together. We lost power during Irma but we had internet, lights, laptops,
and tablets until the power came back on. Probably not a care or worry for
most... it's just a hobby for me. :)

/Raj

Post by Jim Kinney
I never mix investment payoff with geek appeal or security. If the budget
is too tight to run the hardware, I need to be doing other things. AC,
dryer, fridge = big power. My stack of gear in the basement is worth every
W in my happiness (until something breaks then it's all just a pile of
garbage to be replaced asap).
I will be using that rack to provide crawlspace heating this winter:-).
The floor in my den is usually quite cold.
On September 23, 2017 3:04:47 PM EDT, Steve Litt <

Post by Steve Litt
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:31:54 -0700

Post by DJ-Pfulio
The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections
thanks to Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I'm about to get a few of these for my lab. I'm working on a
perpetual dev project and had wanted to use Soekris, but they just
pulled out of the US. I started looking for a replacement and found
these, the apparent Alix successor. These things are beefier and
way cheaper, so it's a win.
On a side note, there's lots of little router-style boxes out of
there, but most of them are from Red China. I shudder to think what
lurks in the firmware.
--Joey

Not cheap is an understatement. At 15 cents/kw-hr, I spend about
$0.40/day running my guestimate 100 watt ancient box. So that's in the
neighborhood of $150/year. It would take me 4.4 years running the
recommended low power computer to break even. Would the $662 computer
last that long and still be relevant to start saving? It's a
reasonable question, although I have a feeling the answer would be
"yes".
In this calculation I assumed the low power unit uses 0 watts, because
my round figure of 100w for my old commodity box is probably low too.
For those of us living in warm climates, a factor in favor of the low
power machine is that my 100 watts creates heat which must be
removed via the rather inefficient method of air conditioning,
effectively raising the wattage I pay for due to this one computer.
I'd feel much better about this investment if it were $300.00. An
investment that pays for itself in 2 years is a no brainer, as long as
there's a reasonable expectation the equipment will last longer than
that.
Whether you buy one of these or not, it's essential to have a second
computer, probably an old commodity box, at the ready in case this one
screws up. You should also have an up to date copy of pfSense or ipCop
or OpenBSD or whatever you're using to firewall.
I love the fact that, as configured, this computer has no wifi. I
really want my wifi separate from my firewall.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
------------------------------
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Jim Kinney

2017-09-24 03:15:35 UTC

Heh, heh. I understand. I had everything except internet.

I have a 15KW backup generator on natural gas. Can't stop a tree fall or truck wreck from taking out a phone pole :-(

Post by Raj Wurttemberg
I should have said why the 114W was an issue. I'm not a "prepper" but every
now and then we have an extended power outage (i.e. Irma) and I do like to
try to limit my watts and amps for a small off-grid, solar setup I have put
together. We lost power during Irma but we had internet, lights, laptops,
and tablets until the power came back on. Probably not a care or worry for
most... it's just a hobby for me. :)
/Raj

Post by Jim Kinney
I never mix investment payoff with geek appeal or security. If the

budget

Post by Jim Kinney
is too tight to run the hardware, I need to be doing other things.

AC,

Post by Jim Kinney
dryer, fridge = big power. My stack of gear in the basement is worth

every

Post by Jim Kinney
W in my happiness (until something breaks then it's all just a pile

Post by Jim Kinney
garbage to be replaced asap).
I will be using that rack to provide crawlspace heating this

winter:-).

Post by Jim Kinney
The floor in my den is usually quite cold.
On September 23, 2017 3:04:47 PM EDT, Steve Litt <

Post by Steve Litt
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:31:54 -0700

Post by DJ-Pfulio
The newer APU2 CPUs handle 750+Mbps on their GigE connections
thanks to Intel NICs. These aren't the old Alix boards.

I'm about to get a few of these for my lab. I'm working on a
perpetual dev project and had wanted to use Soekris, but they

just

Post by Joey Kelly
pulled out of the US. I started looking for a replacement and

found

Post by Joey Kelly
these, the apparent Alix successor. These things are beefier and
way cheaper, so it's a win.
On a side note, there's lots of little router-style boxes out of
there, but most of them are from Red China. I shudder to think

what

Post by Joey Kelly
lurks in the firmware.
--Joey

I've been looking at one of these though I haven't pulled the

trigger

Post by Joey Kelly
yet since they're not cheap. Not necessarily direct from China
(though one office is in Taiwan).
https://www.logicsupply.com/ml400g-12/

Not cheap is an understatement. At 15 cents/kw-hr, I spend about
$0.40/day running my guestimate 100 watt ancient box. So that's in

the

Post by Steve Litt
neighborhood of $150/year. It would take me 4.4 years running the
recommended low power computer to break even. Would the $662

computer

Post by Steve Litt
last that long and still be relevant to start saving? It's a
reasonable question, although I have a feeling the answer would be
"yes".
In this calculation I assumed the low power unit uses 0 watts,

because

Post by Steve Litt
my round figure of 100w for my old commodity box is probably low

too.

Post by Steve Litt
For those of us living in warm climates, a factor in favor of the

low

Post by Steve Litt
power machine is that my 100 watts creates heat which must be
removed via the rather inefficient method of air conditioning,
effectively raising the wattage I pay for due to this one computer.
I'd feel much better about this investment if it were $300.00. An
investment that pays for itself in 2 years is a no brainer, as long

Post by Steve Litt
there's a reasonable expectation the equipment will last longer than
that.
Whether you buy one of these or not, it's essential to have a second
computer, probably an old commodity box, at the ready in case this

one

Post by Steve Litt
screws up. You should also have an up to date copy of pfSense or

ipCop

Post by Steve Litt
or OpenBSD or whatever you're using to firewall.
I love the fact that, as configured, this computer has no wifi. I
really want my wifi separate from my firewall.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Post by Jim Kinney
and reflect authenticity.
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Steve Litt

2017-09-23 01:16:29 UTC

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 00:42:26 -0400

Post by DJ-Pfulio

Post by Raj Wurttemberg
My only issue with it is that it draws 114W

A 10W, fanless, machine designed just for this stuff runs $144-ish and
should easily last 10 yrs. The 1 I use supports VT-x and the case is
part of the thermal design.

Could you please show us an example on Newegg?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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DJ-Pfulio

2017-09-23 10:24:44 UTC

When I was in the market, newegg/amazon didn't supply these things. Had
to order directly from pcengines.ch unless you wanted to pay $150 US
company overcharge.
https://store.netgate.com/NetgateAPU2.aspx

"apu2" is the search term. Save $150 and order the 3-4 parts from pcengines.

To others thinking about Intel Intel-based routers. They've had
interesting failure modes, especially with high traffic. Don't quote
me, but I think it was the baytrail line with these issues.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11110/semi-critical-intel-atom-c2000-flaw-discovered
is one article.

Post by Steve Litt
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 00:42:26 -0400

Post by DJ-Pfulio

Post by Raj Wurttemberg
My only issue with it is that it draws 114W

A 10W, fanless, machine designed just for this stuff runs $144-ish and
should easily last 10 yrs. The 1 I use supports VT-x and the case is
part of the thermal design.

Could you please show us an example on Newegg?

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Steve Litt

2017-09-22 02:58:59 UTC

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:04:58 -0400

I do.

I've been saying for years, soon I'll buy low power machine to save
power. But til then, pfSense or just plain OpenBSD/pf on 10 year old
former daily driver computer.

SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Boris Borisov

2017-09-22 04:11:58 UTC

The best I ever done is 486dx 8MB Ram. Running Linux on floppy with PPPoE
dialer and masquerading the internet to local LAN. I think also was doing
some simple QoS. No data loss everything was in RAM.

Running 100W for firewall is a stretch unless is really complicated one and
needs the CPU power.

Post by Steve Litt
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:04:58 -0400

I do.
I've been saying for years, soon I'll buy low power machine to save
power. But til then, pfSense or just plain OpenBSD/pf on 10 year old
former daily driver computer.
SteveT
Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Ted W.

2017-09-23 12:52:28 UTC