[ale] List issue

Post by Jeff Hubbs via Ale
I just now noticed that at least on Thunderbird via att.net, from 11/27
onward the From on all ALE messages has been reading "Atlanta Linux
Enthusiasts" instead of the sender's name. Is this the new normal or a
config issue?

What I'm noticing on Thunderbird is that recent ALE messages have
"~username~ via Ale <***@ale.org>" as the From header, and have the
sending user's name and email address *and* "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
<***@ale.org>" as the Reply-To header. This is a change from previous,
where From would reflect the user, and Reply-To would contain "Atlanta
Linux Enthusiasts <***@ale.org>".

I suppose the intent is that when hitting Reply, the reply would go to
both the user and to the list, but I note that on my Thunderbird, this
doesn't work. When itting Reply the response goes only to the list, I
presume because it is the last one in Reply-To.

Ben

--
Ben Coleman ***@benshome.net | For the wise man, doing right trumps
http://oloryn.benshome.net/ | looking right. For the fool, looking
Amateur Radio NJ8J | right trumps doing right.

Ben Coleman via Ale

2017-11-29 20:06:27 UTC

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
I suppose the intent is that when hitting Reply, the reply would go to
both the user and to the list, but I note that on my Thunderbird, this
doesn't work. When hitting Reply the response goes only to the list, I
presume because it is the last one in Reply-To.

I'll also note that this appears to be a bug in Thunderbird, as RFC 2822
defines the value of Reply-To as a list of mailing addresses.

Ben

--
Ben Coleman ***@benshome.net | For the wise man, doing right trumps
http://oloryn.benshome.net/ | looking right. For the fool, looking
Amateur Radio NJ8J | right trumps doing right.

Alex Carver via Ale

2017-11-29 20:56:32 UTC

It appears to vary because I see some messages with names and some
messages with Atlanta Linux Enthusiast as the sender. This being with
Thunderbird.

I'll also note that this appears to be a bug in Thunderbird, as RFC 2822
defines the value of Reply-To as a list of mailing addresses.
Ben
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Jerald Sheets via Ale

2017-11-29 21:51:37 UTC

At least weâre getting list emails. The -jobs list appears to be âdown for the countââŠ

âj

Post by Alex Carver via Ale
It appears to vary because I see some messages with names and some
messages with Atlanta Linux Enthusiast as the sender. This being with
Thunderbird.

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Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale

2017-11-29 22:23:21 UTC

Actually I see a changed in MS Outlook as well. Through 11/24 any email I hit "reply" on just shows "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts <***@ale.org>" in the To: but starting with emails received 11/27 onwards hitting "reply" puts both the ale address and the address of the sender in the To: as for example this email To is:

Alex Carver <agcarver+***@acarver.net>; Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts <***@ale.org>

Maybe someone was using the holiday weekend to tweak something on the mail server?

-----Original Message-----
From: Ale [mailto:ale-***@ale.org] On Behalf Of Alex Carver via Ale
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:57 PM
To: ***@ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] List issue

It appears to vary because I see some messages with names and some messages with Atlanta Linux Enthusiast as the sender. This being with Thunderbird.

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
I suppose the intent is that when hitting Reply, the reply would go
to both the user and to the list, but I note that on my Thunderbird,
this doesn't work. When hitting Reply the response goes only to the
list, I presume because it is the last one in Reply-To.

I'll also note that this appears to be a bug in Thunderbird, as RFC
2822 defines the value of Reply-To as a list of mailing addresses.
Ben
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_______________________________________________
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http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
_______________________________________________
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***@ale.org
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Robert Tweedy via Ale

2017-11-30 02:24:39 UTC

Yes, the server settings were changed over the weekend in an attempt to avoid the SPF/DKIM/DMARC errors that have been plaguing the list's emails since the move in October (fixing the rDNS for the server's IP address is still a work in progress). By having each email's "From:" field be the list itself, the messages sent via the list won't be blocked by email systems that do SPF/DKIM checking and subsequently fail the messages because the sending domain is ale.org rather than the member's domain. The sender's address is added to the "Reply-To" field so that you can still tell who it was who sent a message, as the list isn't going to allow anonymous posts.

Regarding Thunderbird, I'm pretty sure that it's able to detect emails that have the "List-Post" and similar headers, and it changes the "Reply All" option to "Reply List" by default for any emails that contain them. The standard "Reply All" functionality can be achieved by clicking the arrow next to the "Reply List" button and selecting "Reply All" instead.

Also, before anyone else points it out, I'm aware that the ale archives stopped working in November and I'm working on getting that fixed for December. It's most likely an SELinux issue, and any input on solutions (that aren't "Disable SELinux") would be greatly appreciated!

-Robert

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Maybe someone was using the holiday weekend to tweak something on the mail server?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ale] List issue
It appears to vary because I see some messages with names and some messages with Atlanta Linux Enthusiast as the sender. This being with Thunderbird.

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
I suppose the intent is that when hitting Reply, the reply would go
to both the user and to the list, but I note that on my Thunderbird,
this doesn't work. When hitting Reply the response goes only to the
list, I presume because it is the last one in Reply-To.

I'll also note that this appears to be a bug in Thunderbird, as RFC
2822 defines the value of Reply-To as a list of mailing addresses.
Ben
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Alex Carver via Ale

2017-11-30 04:16:16 UTC

Reply list isn't always working, though. When a reply list is
available, the button in the toolbar changes appearance and makes it
clearer that it's not a typical reply or reply all. Your email actually
did have the reply list button appear in Thunderbird. However, by
example, both emails from Jeff Lightner and Jerald Sheets (the two most
recent in my list without a "From: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts") did not
trigger the reply list feature. Their Return Path headers were set to
their emails but no Reply To was present. The emails that show as From
ALE have both Reply To and Return Path set.

Post by Robert Tweedy via Ale
Yes, the server settings were changed over the weekend in an attempt to avoid the SPF/DKIM/DMARC errors that have been plaguing the list's emails since the move in October (fixing the rDNS for the server's IP address is still a work in progress). By having each email's "From:" field be the list itself, the messages sent via the list won't be blocked by email systems that do SPF/DKIM checking and subsequently fail the messages because the sending domain is ale.org rather than the member's domain. The sender's address is added to the "Reply-To" field so that you can still tell who it was who sent a message, as the list isn't going to allow anonymous posts.
Regarding Thunderbird, I'm pretty sure that it's able to detect emails that have the "List-Post" and similar headers, and it changes the "Reply All" option to "Reply List" by default for any emails that contain them. The standard "Reply All" functionality can be achieved by clicking the arrow next to the "Reply List" button and selecting "Reply All" instead.
Also, before anyone else points it out, I'm aware that the ale archives stopped working in November and I'm working on getting that fixed for December. It's most likely an SELinux issue, and any input on solutions (that aren't "Disable SELinux") would be greatly appreciated!
-Robert

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Maybe someone was using the holiday weekend to tweak something on the mail server?

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Ken Cochran via Ale

2017-11-30 15:33:55 UTC

Hmm, I'm seeing "***@ale.org" on all emails from the list &
this is with good old mail/mailx, in a terminal session on
(I think) SuSE. Previously I would see who the sender was.
Wish that could return so I can again see who said what.
(Is there a .mailrc setting that'll show that?)
Didn't seem to be a problem before & my email host is VERY
picky about email it accepts. {sigh} -k

Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:24:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [ale] List issue
Yes, the server settings were changed over the weekend in an attempt
to avoid the SPF/DKIM/DMARC errors that have been plaguing the list's
emails since the move in October (fixing the rDNS for the server's IP
address is still a work in progress). By having each email's "From:"
field be the list itself, the messages sent via the list won't be
blocked by email systems that do SPF/DKIM checking and subsequently
fail the messages because the sending domain is ale.org rather than
the member's domain. The sender's address is added to the "Reply-To"
field so that you can still tell who it was who sent a message, as the
list isn't going to allow anonymous posts.
Regarding Thunderbird, I'm pretty sure that it's able to detect emails
that have the "List-Post" and similar headers, and it changes the
"Reply All" option to "Reply List" by default for any emails that
contain them. The standard "Reply All" functionality can be achieved
by clicking the arrow next to the "Reply List" button and selecting
"Reply All" instead.
Also, before anyone else points it out, I'm aware that the ale archives
stopped working in November and I'm working on getting that fixed for
December. It's most likely an SELinux issue, and any input on solutions
(that aren't "Disable SELinux") would be greatly appreciated!
-Robert

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Actually I see a changed in MS Outlook as well. Through 11/24

any email I hit "reply" on just shows "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
onwards hitting "reply" puts both the ale address and the address of

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
I suppose the intent is that when hitting Reply, the reply would go
to both the user and to the list, but I note that on my Thunderbird,
this doesn't work. When hitting Reply the response goes only to the
list, I presume because it is the last one in Reply-To.

I'll also note that this appears to be a bug in Thunderbird, as RFC
2822 defines the value of Reply-To as a list of mailing addresses.
Ben
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
***@ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Jim Kinney via Ale

2017-11-30 15:59:22 UTC

gmail accounts were very unhappy. Most people that run their own mail
service were OK.

Post by Ken Cochran via Ale
this is with good old mail/mailx, in a terminal session on
(I think) SuSE. Previously I would see who the sender was.
Wish that could return so I can again see who said what.
(Is there a .mailrc setting that'll show that?)
Didn't seem to be a problem before & my email host is VERY
picky about email it accepts. {sigh} -k

Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:24:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [ale] List issue
Yes, the server settings were changed over the weekend in an
attempt
to avoid the SPF/DKIM/DMARC errors that have been plaguing the list's
emails since the move in October (fixing the rDNS for the server's IP
address is still a work in progress). By having each email's
"From:"
field be the list itself, the messages sent via the list won't be
blocked by email systems that do SPF/DKIM checking and subsequently
fail the messages because the sending domain is ale.org rather than
the member's domain. The sender's address is added to the "Reply-
To"
field so that you can still tell who it was who sent a message, as the
list isn't going to allow anonymous posts.
Regarding Thunderbird, I'm pretty sure that it's able to detect emails
that have the "List-Post" and similar headers, and it changes the
"Reply All" option to "Reply List" by default for any emails that
contain them. The standard "Reply All" functionality can be
achieved
by clicking the arrow next to the "Reply List" button and selecting
"Reply All" instead.
Also, before anyone else points it out, I'm aware that the ale archives
stopped working in November and I'm working on getting that fixed for
December. It's most likely an SELinux issue, and any input on solutions
(that aren't "Disable SELinux") would be greatly appreciated!
-Robert
---- On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 17:23:21 -0500 Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Actually I see a changed in MS Outlook as well. Through 11/24

any email I hit "reply" on just shows "Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
onwards hitting "reply" puts both the ale address and the address of

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Maybe someone was using the holiday weekend to tweak something

on the mail server?

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
-----Original Message-----

via Ale

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ale] List issue
It appears to vary because I see some messages with names and

some messages with Atlanta Linux Enthusiast as the sender. This
being with Thunderbird.

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
I suppose the intent is that when hitting Reply, the reply

would go

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
to both the user and to the list, but I note that on my

Thunderbird,

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
this doesn't work. When hitting Reply the response goes only

to the

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
list, I presume because it is the last one in Reply-To.

I'll also note that this appears to be a bug in Thunderbird,

as RFC

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
2822 defines the value of Reply-To as a list of mailing

addresses.

Post by Ben Coleman via Ale
Ben
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Steve Litt via Ale

2017-11-30 22:30:31 UTC

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:33:55 -0500

Invariably, the "solution" to this DMARC thing greatly inconveniences
most people, because a few like yahoo decided to use it to "solve"
*their* problems.

The solution I'd advise, especially for a technical list where people
have tech smarts, some amount of money, and several email addresses, is
to not accept email or memberships from anyone using yahoo mail or any
of the other dmarc pushers.

My finding, on most other lists, is that doing this wouldn't reduce the
value of the lists, because most of those using dmarc pusher email
addresses have very little real knowledge to contribute.

I recently did a "reply to sender" on a dmarc-respecting mailing list,
and it sent my post, which was very embarrassing to be made public, to
the whole list. Yeah, I could have prevented that by being more
careful, but most of us think we're safe when we push "reply to sender."

I'd suggest regressing back to the old way.

SteveT

Steve Litt
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale

2017-12-01 14:30:03 UTC

Given that AT&T uses Yahoo for its email customers I'd think such an attitude would block many.

There is one list I joined that wouldn't accept email because my company includes a privacy notice on every outbound email. I advised the folks on that list that such notices do not have force of law and many organizations do this so by having such a policy on their end they're limiting technical users that might help. They didn't bother to respond and I don't bother with that list any longer.

One of the things that truly annoys me about lists like this is how many individuals think they can dictate how the rest of the world should act where it comes to lists. The number of "don't bottom post", "don't top post", "don't inline post" and "don't trim" messages one sees should make it clear that not everyone agrees on what is "best" so there is no reason to heed any such messages.

Other than moderation of outrageous posts one really shouldn't expect much more from a list than to be able to received and respond to messages. By outrageous I mean spam/phishing/name calling - I even accept emails by the misguided who say emacs is better than vim. :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Ale [mailto:ale-***@ale.org] On Behalf Of Steve Litt via Ale
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:31 PM
To: ***@ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] List issue

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:33:55 -0500

with good old mail/mailx, in a terminal session on (I think) SuSE.
Previously I would see who the sender was.
Wish that could return so I can again see who said what.

Invariably, the "solution" to this DMARC thing greatly inconveniences most people, because a few like yahoo decided to use it to "solve"
*their* problems.

The solution I'd advise, especially for a technical list where people have tech smarts, some amount of money, and several email addresses, is to not accept email or memberships from anyone using yahoo mail or any of the other dmarc pushers.

My finding, on most other lists, is that doing this wouldn't reduce the value of the lists, because most of those using dmarc pusher email addresses have very little real knowledge to contribute.

I recently did a "reply to sender" on a dmarc-respecting mailing list, and it sent my post, which was very embarrassing to be made public, to the whole list. Yeah, I could have prevented that by being more careful, but most of us think we're safe when we push "reply to sender."

I'd suggest regressing back to the old way.

SteveT

Steve Litt
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Joey Kelly via Ale

2017-12-02 02:52:56 UTC

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Given that AT&T uses Yahoo for its email customers I'd think such an attitude would block many.

Wait... what? Seriously? Gaa...
--
Joey Kelly
Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant
http://joeykelly.net
504-239-6550
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Alex Carver via Ale

2017-12-02 04:43:42 UTC

Post by Joey Kelly via Ale

Post by Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale
Given that AT&T uses Yahoo for its email customers I'd think such an attitude would block many.

Wait... what? Seriously? Gaa...

Yes, seriously. Customers get @att.net addresses but they are hosted by
Yahoo. However it's unknown how long that will continue now that the
mail service side of Yahoo is owned by Verizon.
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Derek Atkins via Ale

2017-12-01 16:22:46 UTC