Discussion:
systemd or not
(too old to reply)
Boris Borisov
2014-09-05 11:55:29 UTC
Permalink
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
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James Sumners
2014-09-05 12:30:01 UTC
Permalink
I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a
move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:

"In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
functionality should not rely on systemd.[16]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto* dependency
on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on how
systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these changes
in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation
contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a
dependency of GNOME." --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration

So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion,
but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having to
include systemd.

What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is brought
to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful
Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth
reading for much enlightenment)

So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto
others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on
to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now,
they want to take over the whole damn system --
http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with it.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
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--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Lightner, Jeff
2014-09-05 13:06:47 UTC
Permalink
RHEL7 also uses systemd.

>From everything I've seen systemd is the way the Linux world has been going for a while now so fighting it is a losing battle.




-----Original Message-----
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of James Sumners
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not

I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:

"In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME functionality should not rely on systemd.[16] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto* dependency on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on how systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these changes in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a dependency of GNOME." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration

So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion, but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having to include systemd.

What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is brought to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth reading for much enlightenment)

So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now, they want to take over the whole damn system -- http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with it.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto) CH:D 59
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See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

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James Sumners
2014-09-05 13:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Not sure why that would have hit ale-bounces. I just checked, and my
subscription is still active...

I know RHEL7 uses systemd. Outside of work, I don't use RHEL. So they can
basically do whatever they want and I'll just deal with it for the pay
check.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Lightner, Jeff <JLightner at dsservices.com>
wrote:

> RHEL7 also uses systemd.
>
> From everything I've seen systemd is the way the Linux world has been
> going for a while now so fighting it is a losing battle.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of James
> Sumners
> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 8:31 AM
> To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
> Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not
>
> I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
> thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a
> move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:
>
> "In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
> functionality should not rely on systemd.[16] <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
> contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto*
> dependency on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which
> depend on how systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these
> changes in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the
> implementation contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark
> systemd as a dependency of GNOME." --
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration
>
> So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion,
> but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having to
> include systemd.
>
> What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is
> brought to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and
> awful Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:
>
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth
> reading for much enlightenment)
>
> So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto
> others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on
> to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now,
> they want to take over the whole damn system --
> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
>
> I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with
> it.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
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> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
>
>
>
> --
> James Sumners
> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>
> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>
> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto) CH:D 59
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> Athena(r), Created for the Cause(tm)
> Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer
>
> __________________________________________________________
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged
>
> or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended
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> copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information
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> transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that
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--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Solomon Peachy
2014-09-05 13:19:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 01:06:47PM +0000, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
> RHEL7 also uses systemd.
>
> From everything I've seen systemd is the way the Linux world has been
> going for a while now so fighting it is a losing battle.

The oft-unmentioned reason the Linux world is moving there is that under
any *objective* measure, systemd is vastly superior to what it's
replacing.

(But hey, it's far easier to just complain on the internet than it is to
actually do useful work towards solving the problem. That's the real
reason ConsoleKit remains unmaintained to this day...)

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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leam hall
2014-09-05 13:27:12 UTC
Permalink
The issue is that people who work in enterprises have to support more
than one OS. I just complained about this on a RH list for the same
reason. Solaris SMF is in the same trash pile.

The chkconfig stuff was great in that it gave you an interface to
standard init scripts. If you have application dependencies they need
to be in the application scripts, not at the OS's level of control.

On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:19 AM, Solomon Peachy <pizza at shaftnet.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 01:06:47PM +0000, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
>> RHEL7 also uses systemd.
>>
>> From everything I've seen systemd is the way the Linux world has been
>> going for a while now so fighting it is a losing battle.
>
> The oft-unmentioned reason the Linux world is moving there is that under
> any *objective* measure, systemd is vastly superior to what it's
> replacing.
>
> (But hey, it's far easier to just complain on the internet than it is to
> actually do useful work towards solving the problem. That's the real
> reason ConsoleKit remains unmaintained to this day...)
>
> - Solomon
> --
> Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
> Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo



--
Mind on a Mission
Solomon Peachy
2014-09-05 13:41:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 09:27:12AM -0400, leam hall wrote:
> The issue is that people who work in enterprises have to support more
> than one OS. I just complained about this on a RH list for the same
> reason. Solaris SMF is in the same trash pile.

So.. you're seriously complaining that different OSes are... different?

> The chkconfig stuff was great in that it gave you an interface to
> standard init scripts. If you have application dependencies they need
> to be in the application scripts, not at the OS's level of control.

chkconfig only tells you if something is enabled; not if it's actually
running. It doesn't handle dependencies and doesn't make sure if things
are in a sane state.

And it certianly doesn't make sure the application scripts do the right
things, track errors and otherwise ensure your dependencies are
actually running (or shutting down) properly.

As I've said, systemd isn't perfect. But it's considerably less awful
than what it's replacing.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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Lightner, Jeff
2014-09-05 13:49:02 UTC
Permalink
I was listing RHEL7 as ANOTHER distro that is now using it. I was not suggesting people should use systemd because of RHEL7 but rather suggesting that multiple distros have moved that way in later versions including RHEL7 so it appears people will have to learn to use it.




Athena(r), Created for the Cause(tm)
Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer

__________________________________________________________
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged

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James Sumners
2014-09-05 14:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Indeed. But I don't have to deal with it in RHEL for a while, anyway. The
USG's ITS won't get off their ass and even give me a timeline of when they
will even think about supporting (I've had a ticket in for 2 months and
they have yet to acknowledge it). So I'm still using RHEL5 on most systems.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Lightner, Jeff <JLightner at dsservices.com>
wrote:

> I was listing RHEL7 as ANOTHER distro that is now using it. I was not
> suggesting people should use systemd because of RHEL7 but rather suggesting
> that multiple distros have moved that way in later versions including
> RHEL7 so it appears people will have to learn to use it.
>
>
>
>
> Athena(r), Created for the Cause(tm)
> Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer
>
> __________________________________________________________
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged
>
> or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended
>
> recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
>
> copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information
>
> is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic
>
> transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that
>
> you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
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>



--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Beddingfield, Allen
2014-09-05 13:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Meh, I just want it to make an attempt at starting/stopping and then get out of the way. I'll take simplicity over functionality. Honestly, the BSD-style approach is fine by me.

I'm glad that SUSE put in wrappers to make chkconfig and insserv commands do the systemd equivalent, because it is going to take a while to break those old habits..

--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
The University of Alabama

________________________________________
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Solomon Peachy [pizza at shaftnet.org]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 8:41 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not


chkconfig only tells you if something is enabled; not if it's actually
running. It doesn't handle dependencies and doesn't make sure if things
are in a sane state.

And it certianly doesn't make sure the application scripts do the right
things, track errors and otherwise ensure your dependencies are
actually running (or shutting down) properly.

As I've said, systemd isn't perfect. But it's considerably less awful
than what it's replacing.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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_______________________________________________
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-06 18:29:12 UTC
Permalink
On 09/05/2014 09:27 AM, leam hall wrote:
> The issue is that people who work in enterprises have to support more
> than one OS. I just complained about this on a RH list for the same
> reason. Solaris SMF is in the same trash pile.
>
> The chkconfig stuff was great in that it gave you an interface to
> standard init scripts. If you have application dependencies they need
> to be in the application scripts, not at the OS's level of control.

This should be handled by software on the systems themselves being
adapted to a single framework, if that type of thing is required.

If you're using things like the BSD family in your infrastructure, then
you're (obviously) going to be using their init daemons, at least until
they all update their Linux emulations and then bring in systemd. :-)
(Honestly, they probably won't do that, but I can easily see them
creating their own BSD-licensed alternative to systemd, and I think that
will spur some fascinating competition and discussions.)

? Mike
Beddingfield, Allen
2014-09-05 13:31:44 UTC
Permalink
SUSE has switched to it for the upcoming SLES 12, and openSUSE switched a while back....
I hate it, but I have no other choice than to use it.
Allen B.
--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
The University of Alabama

________________________________________
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Lightner, Jeff [JLightner at dsservices.com]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 8:06 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not

RHEL7 also uses systemd.

>From everything I've seen systemd is the way the Linux world has been going for a while now so fighting it is a losing battle.




-----Original Message-----
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of James Sumners
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not

I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:

"In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME functionality should not rely on systemd.[16] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto* dependency on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on how systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these changes in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a dependency of GNOME." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration

So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion, but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having to include systemd.

What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is brought to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth reading for much enlightenment)

So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now, they want to take over the whole damn system -- http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with it.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
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>



--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto) CH:D 59
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See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
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Athena(r), Created for the Cause(tm)
Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer

__________________________________________________________
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or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended

recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,

copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information

is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic

transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that

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Michael Trausch
2014-09-05 13:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH more efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system, essentially. And makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to know it well.

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 5, 2014, at 8:30 AM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
> thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a
> move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:
>
> "In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
> functionality should not rely on systemd.[16]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
> contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto* dependency
> on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on how
> systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these changes
> in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation
> contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a
> dependency of GNOME." --
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration
>
> So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion,
> but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having to
> include systemd.
>
> What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is brought
> to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful
> Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:
>
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth
> reading for much enlightenment)
>
> So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto
> others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on
> to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now,
> they want to take over the whole damn system --
> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
>
> I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with it.
>
>
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/1d544ab0/attachment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
>
>
> --
> James Sumners
> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>
> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>
> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> CH:D 59
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-05 14:46:33 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 09:50 -0400, Michael Trausch wrote:
> Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH
> more efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system,
> essentially. And makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to
> know it well.

Really. Look at the dependencies in systemd. Especially this one:

[mhw at canyon ~]$ rpm -qlR systemd | grep qr
libqrencode.so.3()(64bit)
[mhw at canyon ~]$

Explain to me why in all of hades an init system needs QR codes?

I discovered this in the process of working on trim downs in NST
(Network Security Toolkit) and found that a considerable amount of the
bloated fat getting in my way of shoehorning that back onto bootable
CD's was things like that.

Joking with Serge Hallyn of the LXC project (which sadly considers me
the systemd expert) we were both wondering when Systemd would add a
"Minesweeper" component and make it mandatory.

Regards,
Mike

> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Sep 5, 2014, at 8:30 AM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
> > thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a
> > move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:
> >
> > "In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
> > functionality should not rely on systemd.[16]
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
> > contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto* dependency
> > on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on how
> > systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these changes
> > in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation
> > contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a
> > dependency of GNOME." --
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration
> >
> > So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion,
> > but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having to
> > include systemd.
> >
> > What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is brought
> > to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful
> > Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:
> >
> > https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth
> > reading for much enlightenment)
> >
> > So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto
> > others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on
> > to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now,
> > they want to take over the whole damn system --
> > http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
> >
> > I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with it.
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <
> >> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/1d544ab0/attachment.html
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ale mailing list
> >> Ale at ale.org
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Sumners
> > http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
> >
> > "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> > personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
> > corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> > condition to which they are quickly addicted."
> >
> > Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> > CH:D 59
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/63cf44e4/attachment.html>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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leam hall
2014-09-05 14:53:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at wittsend.com> wrote:
> Really. Look at the dependencies in systemd. Especially this one:

> Explain to me why in all of hades an init system needs QR codes?

Same reason the rpm package meeds Lua libraries and PHP needs Perl.

RPM Hell...


--
Mind on a Mission
Jim Kinney
2014-09-05 14:55:04 UTC
Permalink
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-October/172163.html

So systemctl can provide a qrcode that leads to a microhttpd server that
provides more data that is easily displayed on screen. It's fully
implemented yet so I'm really unsure if it's worth the effort to have the
ability to pop-up a browser with JSON coded log files as part of
diagnostics or not.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at wittsend.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 09:50 -0400, Michael Trausch wrote:
> > Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH
> > more efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system,
> > essentially. And makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to
> > know it well.
>
> Really. Look at the dependencies in systemd. Especially this one:
>
> [mhw at canyon ~]$ rpm -qlR systemd | grep qr
> libqrencode.so.3()(64bit)
> [mhw at canyon ~]$
>
> Explain to me why in all of hades an init system needs QR codes?
>
> I discovered this in the process of working on trim downs in NST
> (Network Security Toolkit) and found that a considerable amount of the
> bloated fat getting in my way of shoehorning that back onto bootable
> CD's was things like that.
>
> Joking with Serge Hallyn of the LXC project (which sadly considers me
> the systemd expert) we were both wondering when Systemd would add a
> "Minesweeper" component and make it mandatory.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Sep 5, 2014, at 8:30 AM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
> > > thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also
> forcing a
> > > move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:
> > >
> > > "In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
> > > functionality should not rely on systemd.[16]
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
> > > contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto*
> dependency
> > > on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on
> how
> > > systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these
> changes
> > > in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation
> > > contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a
> > > dependency of GNOME." --
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration
> > >
> > > So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my
> opinion,
> > > but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also
> having to
> > > include systemd.
> > >
> > > What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is
> brought
> > > to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful
> > > Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:
> > >
> > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
> > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is
> worth
> > > reading for much enlightenment)
> > >
> > > So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software
> onto
> > > others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go
> on
> > > to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect.
> Now,
> > > they want to take over the whole damn system --
> > >
> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
> > >
> > > I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree
> with it.
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >> URL: <
> > >>
> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/1d544ab0/attachment.html
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Ale mailing list
> > >> Ale at ale.org
> > >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Sumners
> > > http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
> > >
> > > "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts
> pathological
> > > personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic
> to the
> > > corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> > > condition to which they are quickly addicted."
> > >
> > > Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> > > CH:D 59
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <
> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/63cf44e4/attachment.html
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ale mailing list
> > > Ale at ale.org
> > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> --
> Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
> /\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 |
> http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
> NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of
> all
> PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: <
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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Jim Kinney
2014-09-05 15:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Ah! It's to support Forward Secure Sealing of system logs. The verification
code is too much to write down so a QRcode is generated that facilitates
saving it to a smart phone. Slick idea. QRCode in a text terminal :-)

https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/g1E6AxVKtyc


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-October/172163.html
>
> So systemctl can provide a qrcode that leads to a microhttpd server that
> provides more data that is easily displayed on screen. It's fully
> implemented yet so I'm really unsure if it's worth the effort to have the
> ability to pop-up a browser with JSON coded log files as part of
> diagnostics or not.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at wittsend.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 09:50 -0400, Michael Trausch wrote:
>> > Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH
>> > more efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system,
>> > essentially. And makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to
>> > know it well.
>>
>> Really. Look at the dependencies in systemd. Especially this one:
>>
>> [mhw at canyon ~]$ rpm -qlR systemd | grep qr
>> libqrencode.so.3()(64bit)
>> [mhw at canyon ~]$
>>
>> Explain to me why in all of hades an init system needs QR codes?
>>
>> I discovered this in the process of working on trim downs in NST
>> (Network Security Toolkit) and found that a considerable amount of the
>> bloated fat getting in my way of shoehorning that back onto bootable
>> CD's was things like that.
>>
>> Joking with Serge Hallyn of the LXC project (which sadly considers me
>> the systemd expert) we were both wondering when Systemd would add a
>> "Minesweeper" component and make it mandatory.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > > On Sep 5, 2014, at 8:30 AM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
>> > > thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also
>> forcing a
>> > > move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:
>> > >
>> > > "In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
>> > > functionality should not rely on systemd.[16]
>> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
>> > > contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto*
>> dependency
>> > > on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend
>> on how
>> > > systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux
>> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these
>> changes
>> > > in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation
>> > > contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a
>> > > dependency of GNOME." --
>> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration
>> > >
>> > > So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my
>> opinion,
>> > > but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also
>> having to
>> > > include systemd.
>> > >
>> > > What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is
>> brought
>> > > to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and
>> awful
>> > > Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:
>> > >
>> > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
>> > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is
>> worth
>> > > reading for much enlightenment)
>> > >
>> > > So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software
>> onto
>> > > others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then
>> go on
>> > > to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect.
>> Now,
>> > > they want to take over the whole damn system --
>> > >
>> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
>> > >
>> > > I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree
>> with it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
>> > >> -------------- next part --------------
>> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > >> URL: <
>> > >>
>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/1d544ab0/attachment.html
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Ale mailing list
>> > >> Ale at ale.org
>> > >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> > >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> > >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > James Sumners
>> > > http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>> > >
>> > > "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts
>> pathological
>> > > personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic
>> to the
>> > > corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence,
>> a
>> > > condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>> > >
>> > > Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
>> > > CH:D 59
>> > > -------------- next part --------------
>> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > > URL: <
>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/63cf44e4/attachment.html
>> >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Ale mailing list
>> > > Ale at ale.org
>> > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Ale mailing list
>> > Ale at ale.org
>> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>> --
>> Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
>> /\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 |
>> http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
>> NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of
>> all
>> PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> Name: signature.asc
>> Type: application/pgp-signature
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>> Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
>> URL: <
>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140905/a644c2e8/attachment.sig
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> James P. Kinney III
>
> Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
> at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
> It won't fatten the dog.
> - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
>
>
> *http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> <http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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Jerald Sheets
2014-09-05 15:36:07 UTC
Permalink
It would appear that Jim beat me to it? LOL


On Sep 5, 2014, at 11:01 AM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah! It's to support Forward Secure Sealing of system logs. The verification
> code is too much to write down so a QRcode is generated that facilitates
> saving it to a smart phone. Slick idea. QRCode in a text terminal :-)
>
> https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/g1E6AxVKtyc
>

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Jim Kinney
2014-09-05 15:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Woo!! first post (on the tail of 16 others :-)


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Jerald Sheets <questy at gmail.com> wrote:

> It would appear that Jim beat me to it? LOL
>
>
> On Sep 5, 2014, at 11:01 AM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ah! It's to support Forward Secure Sealing of system logs. The
> verification
> > code is too much to write down so a QRcode is generated that facilitates
> > saving it to a smart phone. Slick idea. QRCode in a text terminal :-)
> >
> >
> https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/g1E6AxVKtyc
> >
>
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--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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Jerald Sheets
2014-09-05 15:34:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 5, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at WittsEnd.com> wrote:

>
> Really. Look at the dependencies in systemd. Especially this one:
>
> [mhw at canyon ~]$ rpm -qlR systemd | grep qr
> libqrencode.so.3()(64bit)
> [mhw at canyon ~]$
>
> Explain to me why in all of hades an init system needs QR codes?


>From Lennart on the DEV team answering that very question:

> Am I the only one who raised his eyebrow when today's systemd update to
> systemd-194-1.fc18 pulled in libmicrohttpd and qrencode-libs?

The live-syncing logging logic that is available in 184 as a preview is
based on JSON and HTTP (in order to build as much on existing standards
as possible, and get best integration with other systems). In order to
keep the footprint low we decided to use an existing embeddable minimal
HTTP engine for that, rather than writing our own. Correspondingly the
microhttpd library is only pulled in by the journal gateway daemon,
which is responsible for the HTTP iface to the journal. We thought about
splitting this off into an individual package (and it would be really
easy to still do that), but as the code of libmicrohttpd is minimal, and
it doesn't pull in any deps beyond what is already in the minimal
installation set we didn't bother so far. Note that the code is not
enabled unless people do "systemctl enable
systemd-journal-gatewayd.service".

The QR code stuff is for showing a scannable QR code for the FSS sealing
key. It's a gimmick. In order to minimize footprint we actually made
sure that the qrencode pacakge got split up in order not to pull in any
additional packages into the basic set. It too is a really minimal dep,
pulling nothing else in that wasn't in the minimal installation set
already. Here too, was the option to implement our own thing, our own QR
encoding code or just use the existing solution whose code is quite OK,
whose deps are minimal, and which is quite well tested already. With the
qrencode package split-up we were quite happy with having a dep on it.
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-06 18:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Before I get into the directed inline reply below, here's my overall
position. I don't have as much time as I like to go into it in depth,
but I might be able to be convinced to resurrect my blog or put together
a talk on it...

OH! And PulseAudio was mentioned. PulseAudio SUCKED MAJORLY in the
beginning. But today it is superior to anything else I've used. I still
can't figure out how to get Microsoft Windows to drive my speakers
correctly. Modern PulseAudio (as found in Fedora 20, for example) gets
the configuration correct out of the box, every time. It was not always
like that, and anyone can easily find many of my rants about PulseAudio
problems in the ALE archives and elsewhere on the 'net. But today, I
appreciate the fact that I can actually enjoy my music with it, without
modifying 10 different config files to get the channels and upscaling
correctly mapped persistently across reboots.

1. systemd is specific to the Linux kernel. It will not run on Hurd,
FreeBSD, NetBSD, or any other system. It therefore takes full
advantage of everything that Linux has to offer. That is to say that
Linux is one of systemd's four core dependencies.
1. It uses cgroups, which allow it to ensure that processes never
escape their assigned trees.
2. It works to standardize certain aspects of the environment which
previously did not need standardization. With the coming
obsolescence of X11 (on Linux systems), being replaced by the
far more efficient and versatile Wayland, having things like
"seat" and "session" management provided by the system is better.
3. It works to standardize individual user sessions, too. No
longer do you need things like a profile or xinit script. You
can have systemd --user start when you login, and maintain
things for you while you're logged in (and it can be configured
to do certain things only once, globally, such as start a local
daemon, terminating it upon the termination of your last login
session if you've multiple).
2. systemd is as lightweight as desired. It depends on Linux, glibc,
libcap, and util-linux (satisfiable with busybox). That's it. Pair
a current systemd with Linux 3.17 or later and the (optional) D-Bus
requirement disappears entirely.
3. systemd makes rapid experimentation easy. 4 dependencies. Use
isolinux to boot from a CD, or use User-Mode Linux to perform rapid
experimentation in your own userspace.
4. systemd formalizes a lot of configuration that previously was done
any one of a million ways by different distributions and
subdistributions. And now that (nearly all) distributions use
systemd as the system manager, that knowledge is /truly/ portable.
No longer are there (mandatory) huge low-level differences between
e.g., Debian and RHEL!
5. systemd makes administration very easy.
6. systemd is the first stepping stone to having a, IMHO, truly secure
environment to work in. It is aware of capabilities, and integrates
with PolicyKit. Add glue to allow SSH to be used as a transport for
inter-system management (actually, if I'm not mistaken, systemd
already provides that) and you can now do a great deal either
quickly or programmatically, without having to move terribly much in
the way of resources.
7. It's great for the so-called "DevOps" thing. Since service
configuration in /etc is now admin-controlled and not partially
controlled by the distribution, rsync deployment becomes possible
for far more classes of software than previously possible. The
distribution places unit files in /usr/lib/systemd, and the host
administrator (or host administration agent software) can override
everything, using a similarly built tree in /etc/systemd.

There's more to it, and it's versatile as well. The journal mechanism
provides functionality that is EXTREMELY useful for both development and
production troubleshooting, and is far easier to work with than syslog,
whether on just one system or on multiple.

Below, my reply wherein I highlight just how lightweight a systemd
system can be---like the Linux kernel, which may be very bloated (when
you use a distro kernel, it usually is) or lean (as you please), the
systemd software can be configured to be very slim indeed.

On 09/05/2014 10:46 AM, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> Really. Look at the dependencies in systemd. Especially this one:
Systemd itself (from upstream) has the following dependencies:

(This is from the systemd README for systemd-216, the very latest release):

glibc >= 2.14
libcap
libseccomp >= 1.0.0 (optional)
libblkid >= 2.20 (from util-linux) (optional)
libkmod >= 15 (optional)
PAM >= 1.1.2 (optional)
libcryptsetup (optional)
libaudit (optional)
libacl (optional)
libselinux (optional)
liblzma (optional)
liblz4 >= 119 (optional)
libgcrypt (optional)
libqrencode (optional)
libmicrohttpd (optional)
libpython (optional)
libidn (optional)
gobject-introspection > 1.40.0 (optional)
elfutils >= 158 (optional)
make, gcc, and similar tools

During runtime, you need the following additional
dependencies:

util-linux >= v2.19 (requires fsck -l, agetty -s),
v2.21 required for tests in test/
dbus >= 1.4.0 (strictly speaking optional, but recommended)
sulogin (from util-linux >= 2.22 or sysvinit-tools, optional but recommended,
required for tests in test/)
dracut (optional)
PolicyKit (optional)

Notice how most of those requirements are /optional/. This includes
libqrencode.

A little while back, when the first major "fuck systemd, it's bloated"
holy war happened, the Debian project performed a quite complete
analysis of systemd
<https://people.debian.org/%7Estapelberg/docs/systemd-dependencies.html>
showing that it's quite worthwhile, comparing it with sysvinit and upstart.

> Explain to me why in all of hades an init system needs QR codes?
Let's find out, shall we?

If you run the command for elf in $(rpm -qlR systemd|egrep
'^/usr/(s?)bin'); do ldd $elf | grep qrenco; done, you'll find that
exactly one instance exists; so let's see what that is:

mbt at aloe ~$ for elf in $(rpm -qlR systemd|egrep '^/usr/(s?)bin'); do echo $elf; ldd $elf 2> /dev/null; printf '\n\n' ; done | grep -C7 qrenc

/usr/bin/journalctl
linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x00007fff8296d000)
librt.so.1 => /lib64/librt.so.1 (0x00007fe5bc2b1000)
liblzma.so.5 => /lib64/liblzma.so.5 (0x00007fe5bc08c000)
libgcrypt.so.11 => /lib64/libgcrypt.so.11 (0x00007fe5bbe0c000)
libacl.so.1 => /lib64/libacl.so.1 (0x00007fe5bbc03000)
libqrencode.so.3 => /lib64/libqrencode.so.3 (0x00007fe5bb9f6000)
libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib64/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007fe5bb7df000)
libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007fe5bb421000)
/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x0000003752c00000)
libpthread.so.0 => /lib64/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007fe5bb204000)
libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib64/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007fe5baffe000)
libdl.so.2 => /lib64/libdl.so.2 (0x00007fe5badfa000)
libattr.so.1 => /lib64/libattr.so.1 (0x00007fe5babf5000)

It appears that the Journal has the *(_optional_)* linkage against the
QRencoder library. Why? Because this is a feature that goes to support
*Forward Secure Sealing journal logging*. (I realize that this has
already been pointed out.)

As can be seen in the systemd README, this is an _optional_ dependency
which allows systemd to display the QR code of the verification key when
the user runs "journalctl --setup-keys". It displays the QR code right
on the terminal
<https://plus.google.com/photos/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/albums/5778855891080167857/5778855890152395650?pid=5778855890152395650&oid=%2BLennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly>.

And this works on anything systemd works on---including your little
Raspberry Pi units---and comes nearly for free. And did I mention that
it is */optional/*? Talk to Fedora or Red Hat if you don't like the way
they package it, or build systemd from source yourself and create an RPM
that you use. Put the blame where it's due, and not where the very
first thing points to.

If you want to confirm this, you can build yourself a GCC with --sysroot
support and create, from source, a root filesystem that comprises of
linux, glibc, libcap, busybox, and systemd. Oh, shit. I was wrong; you
can't build a complete systemd system with 4 packages, it's 5 packages.
Oops.

Systemd is pretty damned nice, if you take the time to get to know it.
It /greatly/ simplifies the stack, and has actually improved the
robustness of the systems that use it. *Creating a test distribution
that is bootable requires the five packages I listed above, plus a boot
loader.* It doesn't get easier or simpler than that.

Well, yes, it does. Don't use a boot loader and try everything under an
"ARCH=um" kernel.

--- Mike
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James Sumners
2014-09-06 20:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Ugh. That's whole LOT of stuff that the supposed "init system" is doing.
Why would I want the init system managing the GUI environment (or even
window manager)? Why would I want the init system doing syslog and
logrotate's jobs? Why would I want the init system managing the
configuration for everything else?

Answer: I don't.


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-06 20:50:44 UTC
Permalink
On 09/06/2014 04:30 PM, James Sumners wrote:
> Ugh. That's whole LOT of stuff that the supposed "init system" is doing.
> Why would I want the init system managing the GUI environment (or even
> window manager)? Why would I want the init system doing syslog and
> logrotate's jobs? Why would I want the init system managing the
> configuration for everything else?
>
> Answer: I don't.

Answer is: They don't. PID 1 is not involved in that. You're either
not reading about what systemd is and how it works, or you don't care.

Also note that systemd is *not* an init system. It is a "system
manager". And /that/ is what it does well.

--- Mike
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James Sumners
2014-09-05 14:48:48 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Michael Trausch <mike at trausch.us> wrote:

> Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH more
> efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system, essentially. And
> makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to know it well.
>

No, I don't. Writing a sysvinit script is easy and it stays out of the way.


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-06 18:22:12 UTC
Permalink
On 09/05/2014 10:48 AM, James Sumners wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Michael Trausch<mike at trausch.us> wrote:
>
>> >Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH more
>> >efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system, essentially. And
>> >makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to know it well.
>> >
> No, I don't. Writing a sysvinit script is easy and it stays out of the way.
Writing a Service unit file is easier, and controlling processes is
simpler. How is systemd "in the way"?

For lightdm:

[Unit]
Description=Light Display Manager
Documentation=man:lightdm(1)
Conflicts=getty at tty1.service
After=systemd-user-sessions.service getty at tty1.service plymouth-quit.service livesys-late.service

[Service]
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/lightdm
Restart=always
IgnoreSIGPIPE=no
BusName=org.freedesktop.DisplayManager

[Install]
Alias=display-manager.service

To disable it say "systemctl disable display-manager". To enable it
again, say "systemctl enable display-manager". Want to change the
display manager? Copy to "/etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service",
use your own ExecStart= line and you're done. Simple, easy configuration
overrides which can be also easily automated and mass-deployed.

To any distribution which uses systemd. Without having to worry about
system specifics; that's what package managers are for.

? Mike
James Sumners
2014-09-06 20:27:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Michael B. Trausch <mike at trausch.us> wrote:

> Writing a Service unit file is easier, and controlling processes is
> simpler. How is systemd "in the way"?
>
> For lightdm:
>
> [Unit]
> Description=Light Display Manager
> Documentation=man:lightdm(1)
> Conflicts=getty at tty1.service
> After=systemd-user-sessions.service getty at tty1.service
> plymouth-quit.service livesys-late.service
>
> [Service]
> ExecStart=/usr/sbin/lightdm
> Restart=always
> IgnoreSIGPIPE=no
> BusName=org.freedesktop.DisplayManager
>
> [Install]
> Alias=display-manager.service
>

How is it in the way? For one, I have no clue what any of that even means.
Two, when do they start? Under what run levels? I could come up with
others, but, whatever.


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-06 21:13:49 UTC
Permalink
On 09/06/2014 04:27 PM, James Sumners wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Michael B. Trausch <mike at trausch.us> wrote:
>
>> Writing a Service unit file is easier, and controlling processes is
>> simpler. How is systemd "in the way"?
>>
>> For lightdm:
>>
>> [Unit]
>> Description=Light Display Manager
>> Documentation=man:lightdm(1)
>> Conflicts=getty at tty1.service
>> After=systemd-user-sessions.service getty at tty1.service
>> plymouth-quit.service livesys-late.service
>>
>> [Service]
>> ExecStart=/usr/sbin/lightdm
>> Restart=always
>> IgnoreSIGPIPE=no
>> BusName=org.freedesktop.DisplayManager
>>
>> [Install]
>> Alias=display-manager.service
>>
> How is it in the way? For one, I have no clue what any of that even means.

If you take a minute and read it line-by-line, it should pretty well
make sense if you've managed UNIX systems for more than a little while.
Systemd doesn't introduce anything major in terms of fundamental
concepts, it just introduces a set of newer, simpler ways to do what we
did before so that we can make better use of our time. (That's what
technology is supposed to do, isn't it?)

The structure requirements to write them can of course be learned by
reading the documentation, which is pretty well-written. Often,
services are left alone; when they do need to be modified, you can
typically do so by copying and modifying the file and the system simply
honors it.

The Description, Documentation, and After lines should pretty well make
sense; the Conflicts line is there because systemd implementations often
run the display manager on tty1.

The [Service] section tells systemd how to manage or supervise the
process. ExecStart gives the command line, Restart tells systemd
whether it needs to always restart, restart only if it died with an
error, or never restart. IgnoreSIGPIPE should be pretty obvious. The
BusName line sets up systemd for *socket activation*, meaning that if
the lightdm service is enabled (*systemctl enable lightdm.service*) but
not currently running, and a D-Bus connection is made to the
*org.freedesktop.DisplayManager* D-Bus endpoint, systemd will notice and
spawn the display manager to answer it.

Systemd supports services starting normally, as well as socket
activation via UNIX socket, TCP socket, or D-Bus socket, or as the
result of a hotplug event.

> Two, when do they start? Under what run levels?

There is no concept of "run level". Again, problem which can be fixed
by reading the documentation and learning the system; it's not expected
to be the same as an init system because it isn't an init system. It is
a system manager, which includes an init system.

You have the concept instead of "targets". For example, there is
*default.target* and *graphical.target* and *multi-user.target*. These
can be loosely said to be like runlevels, but there are an arbitrary
number of them. If you want to define a *system-maintenance.target*,
you can. If you want to define a *system-thinks-its-compromised.target*
which is configured to run programatically by a security system you
have, guess what, you can.

You /could/ do these things with an init system by modifying all the
trees and reading script files, but that's way more difficult.

systemd makes it possible to control every aspect of the system's
management either at the system itself, or remotely, using any number of
management utilities. Among other reasons, because every file format is
well-documented and not ad-hoc. There are no shell scripts to manage
the system. The system provides a D-Bus interface for managing the
services that are running, enabled, or disabled, as well as command-line
utilities. Overall, this means that we can now programmatically manage
entire fleets of systems without having to put together all of the
components that would typically be required to do so. Yes, you still
need to configure your service configuration files, things like the
database servers and display managers need to read their configuration.
But you can manage them in the same way as with "classic" init systems,
by modifying files and using command lines, or you can manage them /any
way you want/, from anywhere, over a secure SSH link and without a shell.

> I could come up with
> others, but, whatever.

If you come up with any that aren't the result of "I don't like change"
or "I don't want to read the documentation" or similar, I'm not
interested. However, if you come up with ways that systemd is actually
"in the way", I am all ears. For my part, having approached it a
skeptic, and seeing first-hand what I can do with it in simply minutes
as opposed to hours or days starting from scratch---five packages is the
minimum system, no massive configuration required, it just works out of
the box---and easy, simple, secure local and remote management? I'm sold.

Filesystems get more complex all the time; all modern filesystems
resemble databases more than they do filesystems of decades gone by.
Filesystems of decades gone by could be interpreted by a human being by
reading the raw disk blocks. Now we must use tools to inspect and
repair e.g., zfs, btrfs, NTFS, or ReiserFS. People whined at the
introduction of filesystems which were opaque to humans. However, the
things that these filesystems provide vastly outweigh the Old Dominion
of relatively simple and linear filesystems, and that's why they're
popular: They themselves are more complex, */but they simplify the
system overall/*. And that's worthwhile, no matter whether you're a
programmer or an administrator.

--- Mike
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Charles Shapiro
2014-09-06 21:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Mike, this is real interesting. I started out suspicious and hostile about
systemd, and the press didn't help. Your posts are changing my mind.

-- CHS


On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 5:13 PM, Michael B. Trausch <mike at trausch.us> wrote:

> On 09/06/2014 04:27 PM, James Sumners wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Michael B. Trausch <mike at trausch.us>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Writing a Service unit file is easier, and controlling processes is
>>> simpler. How is systemd "in the way"?
>>>
>>> For lightdm:
>>>
>>> [Unit]
>>> Description=Light Display Manager
>>> Documentation=man:lightdm(1)
>>> Conflicts=getty at tty1.service
>>> After=systemd-user-sessions.service getty at tty1.service
>>> plymouth-quit.service livesys-late.service
>>>
>>> [Service]
>>> ExecStart=/usr/sbin/lightdm
>>> Restart=always
>>> IgnoreSIGPIPE=no
>>> BusName=org.freedesktop.DisplayManager
>>>
>>> [Install]
>>> Alias=display-manager.service
>>>
>>> How is it in the way? For one, I have no clue what any of that even
>> means.
>>
>
> If you take a minute and read it line-by-line, it should pretty well make
> sense if you've managed UNIX systems for more than a little while. Systemd
> doesn't introduce anything major in terms of fundamental concepts, it just
> introduces a set of newer, simpler ways to do what we did before so that we
> can make better use of our time. (That's what technology is supposed to
> do, isn't it?)
>
> The structure requirements to write them can of course be learned by
> reading the documentation, which is pretty well-written. Often, services
> are left alone; when they do need to be modified, you can typically do so
> by copying and modifying the file and the system simply honors it.
>
> The Description, Documentation, and After lines should pretty well make
> sense; the Conflicts line is there because systemd implementations often
> run the display manager on tty1.
>
> The [Service] section tells systemd how to manage or supervise the
> process. ExecStart gives the command line, Restart tells systemd whether
> it needs to always restart, restart only if it died with an error, or never
> restart. IgnoreSIGPIPE should be pretty obvious. The BusName line sets up
> systemd for *socket activation*, meaning that if the lightdm service is
> enabled (*systemctl enable lightdm.service*) but not currently running, and
> a D-Bus connection is made to the *org.freedesktop.DisplayManager* D-Bus
> endpoint, systemd will notice and spawn the display manager to answer it.
>
> Systemd supports services starting normally, as well as socket activation
> via UNIX socket, TCP socket, or D-Bus socket, or as the result of a hotplug
> event.
>
> Two, when do they start? Under what run levels?
>>
>
> There is no concept of "run level". Again, problem which can be fixed by
> reading the documentation and learning the system; it's not expected to be
> the same as an init system because it isn't an init system. It is a system
> manager, which includes an init system.
>
> You have the concept instead of "targets". For example, there is
> *default.target* and *graphical.target* and *multi-user.target*. These can
> be loosely said to be like runlevels, but there are an arbitrary number of
> them. If you want to define a *system-maintenance.target*, you can. If
> you want to define a *system-thinks-its-compromised.target* which is
> configured to run programatically by a security system you have, guess
> what, you can.
>
> You /could/ do these things with an init system by modifying all the trees
> and reading script files, but that's way more difficult.
>
> systemd makes it possible to control every aspect of the system's
> management either at the system itself, or remotely, using any number of
> management utilities. Among other reasons, because every file format is
> well-documented and not ad-hoc. There are no shell scripts to manage the
> system. The system provides a D-Bus interface for managing the services
> that are running, enabled, or disabled, as well as command-line utilities.
> Overall, this means that we can now programmatically manage entire fleets
> of systems without having to put together all of the components that would
> typically be required to do so. Yes, you still need to configure your
> service configuration files, things like the database servers and display
> managers need to read their configuration. But you can manage them in the
> same way as with "classic" init systems, by modifying files and using
> command lines, or you can manage them /any way you want/, from anywhere,
> over a secure SSH link and without a shell.
>
> I could come up with
>> others, but, whatever.
>>
>
> If you come up with any that aren't the result of "I don't like change" or
> "I don't want to read the documentation" or similar, I'm not interested.
> However, if you come up with ways that systemd is actually "in the way", I
> am all ears. For my part, having approached it a skeptic, and seeing
> first-hand what I can do with it in simply minutes as opposed to hours or
> days starting from scratch---five packages is the minimum system, no
> massive configuration required, it just works out of the box---and easy,
> simple, secure local and remote management? I'm sold.
>
> Filesystems get more complex all the time; all modern filesystems resemble
> databases more than they do filesystems of decades gone by. Filesystems of
> decades gone by could be interpreted by a human being by reading the raw
> disk blocks. Now we must use tools to inspect and repair e.g., zfs, btrfs,
> NTFS, or ReiserFS. People whined at the introduction of filesystems which
> were opaque to humans. However, the things that these filesystems provide
> vastly outweigh the Old Dominion of relatively simple and linear
> filesystems, and that's why they're popular: They themselves are more
> complex, */but they simplify the system overall/*. And that's worthwhile,
> no matter whether you're a programmer or an administrator.
>
> --- Mike
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-07 00:31:43 UTC
Permalink
On 09/06/2014 05:36 PM, Charles Shapiro wrote:
> Mike, this is real interesting. I started out suspicious and hostile about
> systemd, and the press didn't help. Your posts are changing my mind.

I was very skeptical myself. Specifically, the whole Upstart thing
turned me off to the idea of sysvinit replacements for quite some time.
It wasn't until I realized that most of the distributions switched and
that RHEL 7 was going to use it that I started learning it---quite
reluctantly.

It took a while to convince me. It wasn't until I cross-compiled a
standalone busybox-based system for the R? that I realized that this was
/exactly/ what we need. I built 5 packages, configured the boot
process, and it actually worked. I got a shell on the console. After
stripping all of the binaries, it was /tiny/. And could fit on
/anything/ we have today, save for places where there is no hope for the
Linux kernel to ever run, such as a PIC or AVR 8-bit MCU.

--- Mike
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Jerald Sheets
2014-09-08 14:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Haven?t been able to read all the messages, but here?s the latex on the BSD front regarding SystemD?. Maybe you BSD folks won?t be safe from the systems onslaught after all?


http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/14/09/08/0250207/gsoc-project-works-to-emulate-systemd-for-openbsd?utm_source=rss1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed


Jerald
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-08 14:58:54 UTC
Permalink
On 09/08/2014 10:14 AM, Jerald Sheets wrote:
> Haven?t been able to read all the messages, but here?s the latex on the BSD front regarding SystemD?. Maybe you BSD folks won?t be safe from the systems onslaught after all?

I am not at all surprised. The BSDs have for a long time included Linux
API/ABI emulation. I won't be surprised if we wind up seeing one of the
BSDs actually adopting systemd and using it as a measurement of their
Linux emulation. :-)

? Mike
James Sumners
2014-09-08 15:58:48 UTC
Permalink
I would. As I said in my original reply in this thread -- you either adopt
systemd to run the newest versions of GNOME or you don't get GNOME. That's
why this BSD project exists, to add support for a system they do not want
just so they can continue to use a desktop manager. It is a completely
ludicrous situation that a specific system I it manager is required to use
a desktop environment.

On Monday, September 8, 2014, Michael B. Trausch <mike at trausch.us> wrote:

> On 09/08/2014 10:14 AM, Jerald Sheets wrote:
>
>> Haven?t been able to read all the messages, but here?s the latex on the
>> BSD front regarding SystemD?. Maybe you BSD folks won?t be safe from the
>> systems onslaught after all?
>>
>
> I am not at all surprised. The BSDs have for a long time included Linux
> API/ABI emulation. I won't be surprised if we wind up seeing one of the
> BSDs actually adopting systemd and using it as a measurement of their Linux
> emulation. :-)
>
> ? Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Derek Atkins
2014-09-08 16:45:26 UTC
Permalink
James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> writes:

> I would. As I said in my original reply in this thread -- you either adopt
> systemd to run the newest versions of GNOME or you don't get GNOME. That's
> why this BSD project exists, to add support for a system they do not want
> just so they can continue to use a desktop manager. It is a completely
> ludicrous situation that a specific system I it manager is required to use
> a desktop environment.

Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.

Long live XFCE! :)

-derek

--
Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH
warlord at MIT.EDU PGP key available
Jim Kinney
2014-09-08 16:52:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:

> James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I would. As I said in my original reply in this thread -- you either
> adopt
> > systemd to run the newest versions of GNOME or you don't get GNOME.
> That's
> > why this BSD project exists, to add support for a system they do not want
> > just so they can continue to use a desktop manager. It is a completely
> > ludicrous situation that a specific system I it manager is required to
> use
> > a desktop environment.
>
> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
>


But, but, but, ..... We NEED a windows style registry for Linux. My life
would be so incomplete without it!

OK. We really need a window manager that actually uses every compiled and
scripting language there is. Gnome needs to add a few more, that are all
required, of course, to be fully complete on the
"fracktheusermaintaintingthismess" scale. Ada, ruby and LISP and it's done.

May need some fortran for graphics

:-)

>
> Long live XFCE! :)
>
> -derek
>
> --
> Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
> Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
> URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH
> warlord at MIT.EDU PGP key available
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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James Sumners
2014-09-08 16:59:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:

> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
>
> Long live XFCE! :)
>

And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
how far systemd's tentacles reach.


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Evan Banyash
2014-09-08 17:04:45 UTC
Permalink
You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
> >
> > Long live XFCE! :)
> >
>
> And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
> since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
> how far systemd's tentacles reach.
>
>
> --
> James Sumners
> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>
> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>
> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> CH:D 59
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/078abe4a/attachment.html
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
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Damon L. Chesser
2014-09-08 17:28:54 UTC
Permalink
No, I did not know this. says who?



On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
>>>
>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>>
>> And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
>> since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
>> how far systemd's tentacles reach.
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Sumners
>> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>>
>> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
>> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
>> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
>> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>>
>> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
>> CH:D 59
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/078abe4a/attachment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Damon at damtek.com
404-271-8699
Jim Kinney
2014-09-08 17:36:59 UTC
Permalink
xfce.org front page has last release was April 28, 2012.

:-(

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:

> No, I did not know this. says who?
>
>
>
>
> On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>
>> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
>> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
>>>>
>>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>>>
>>>> And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
>>> since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
>>> how far systemd's tentacles reach.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Sumners
>>> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>>>
>>> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
>>> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to
>>> the
>>> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
>>> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>>>
>>> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
>>> CH:D 59
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <
>>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/
>>> 078abe4a/attachment.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ale mailing list
>>> Ale at ale.org
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>
> --
> Damon at damtek.com
> 404-271-8699
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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leam hall
2014-09-08 17:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Mail list seems to be alive. Not overwhelming though.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
> xfce.org front page has last release was April 28, 2012.
>
> :-(
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:
>
>> No, I did not know this. says who?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>>
>>> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
>>> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
>>>>>
>>>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>>>>
>>>>> And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
>>>> since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
>>>> how far systemd's tentacles reach.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> James Sumners
>>>> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>>>>
>>>> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
>>>> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to
>>>> the
>>>> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
>>>> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>>>>
>>>> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
>>>> CH:D 59
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <
>>>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/
>>>> 078abe4a/attachment.html
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ale mailing list
>>>> Ale at ale.org
>>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/
>>> 20140908/2c4b78f8/attachment.html>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ale mailing list
>>> Ale at ale.org
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Damon at damtek.com
>> 404-271-8699
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> James P. Kinney III
>
> Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
> at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
> It won't fatten the dog.
> - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
>
>
> *http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> <http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo



--
Mind on a Mission
Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-08 19:03:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 13:36 -0400, Jim Kinney wrote:
> xfce.org front page has last release was April 28, 2012.

Once could EASILY argue that, if GNOME had stopped at their releases
before that time frame, they might be BETTER off than they are now.
GNOME 3 came out in 2011.

> :-(

Regards,
Mike

> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:
>
> > No, I did not know this. says who?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> >
> >> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
> >> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
> >>>>
> >>>> Long live XFCE! :)
> >>>>
> >>>> And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
> >>> since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
> >>> how far systemd's tentacles reach.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> James Sumners
> >>> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
> >>>
> >>> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> >>> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to
> >>> the
> >>> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> >>> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
> >>>
> >>> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> >>> CH:D 59
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/
> >>> 078abe4a/attachment.html
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ale mailing list
> >>> Ale at ale.org
> >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >>>
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/
> >> 20140908/2c4b78f8/attachment.html>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ale mailing list
> >> Ale at ale.org
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Damon at damtek.com
> > 404-271-8699
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
>
>
>
> --

--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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Derek Atkins
2014-09-08 17:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Evan,

On Mon, September 8, 2014 1:28 pm, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
> No, I did not know this. says who?
>
>
>
> On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If
>> you
>> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.

I'm not sure where you've heard this.
Looking at git.xfce.org I see changes as of 3 days ago.
So it doesn't look like it's been abandoned to me.

Or are you complaining about the fact that the last actual release was in
2012?

-derek

--
Derek Atkins 617-623-3745
derek at ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com
Computer and Internet Security Consultant
Damon L. Chesser
2014-09-08 17:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Shall I get a rope?


who has the tar?


On 09/08/2014 01:41 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> Evan,
>
> On Mon, September 8, 2014 1:28 pm, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
>> No, I did not know this. says who?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>>> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If
>>> you
>>> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.
> I'm not sure where you've heard this.
> Looking at git.xfce.org I see changes as of 3 days ago.
> So it doesn't look like it's been abandoned to me.
>
> Or are you complaining about the fact that the last actual release was in
> 2012?
>
> -derek
>

--
Damon at damtek.com
404-271-8699
Beddingfield, Allen
2014-09-08 17:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Be sure it is a sufficiently scratchy rope :D
--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
The University of Alabama

________________________________________
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Damon L. Chesser [damon at damtek.com]
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 12:46 PM
To: ale at ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not

Shall I get a rope?


who has the tar?
Scott Castaline
2014-09-09 02:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Hmm no mention of feathers

On 09/08/2014 01:59 PM, Beddingfield, Allen wrote:
> Be sure it is a sufficiently scratchy rope :D
> --
> Allen Beddingfield
> Systems Engineer
> The University of Alabama
>
> ________________________________________
> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Damon L. Chesser [damon at damtek.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 12:46 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not
>
> Shall I get a rope?
>
>
> who has the tar?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo


--
Sent from my Fedora Linux PC to you, NSA, the CIA, FBI, HSA and God only knows who else?!
Damon L. Chesser
2014-09-09 04:38:12 UTC
Permalink
I wanted a community effort.


On 09/08/2014 10:08 PM, Scott Castaline wrote:
> Hmm no mention of feathers
>
> On 09/08/2014 01:59 PM, Beddingfield, Allen wrote:
>> Be sure it is a sufficiently scratchy rope :D
>> --
>> Allen Beddingfield
>> Systems Engineer
>> The University of Alabama
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Damon L.
>> Chesser [damon at damtek.com]
>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 12:46 PM
>> To: ale at ale.org
>> Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not
>>
>> Shall I get a rope?
>>
>>
>> who has the tar?
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
>

--
Damon at damtek.com
404-271-8699
Pete Hardie
2014-09-09 12:08:31 UTC
Permalink
So you are looking for a BOAF session?

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:38 AM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:

> I wanted a community effort.
>
>
> On 09/08/2014 10:08 PM, Scott Castaline wrote:
>
>> Hmm no mention of feathers
>>
>> On 09/08/2014 01:59 PM, Beddingfield, Allen wrote:
>>
>>> Be sure it is a sufficiently scratchy rope :D
>>> --
>>> Allen Beddingfield
>>> Systems Engineer
>>> The University of Alabama
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Damon L.
>>> Chesser [damon at damtek.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 12:46 PM
>>> To: ale at ale.org
>>> Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not
>>>
>>> Shall I get a rope?
>>>
>>>
>>> who has the tar?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ale mailing list
>>> Ale at ale.org
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Damon at damtek.com
> 404-271-8699
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps
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Scott Castaline
2014-09-09 17:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Pheasant under glass might be nice or a Cornish hen or two.:-)


On 09/09/2014 08:08 AM, Pete Hardie wrote:
> So you are looking for a BOAF session?
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:38 AM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:
>
>> I wanted a community effort.
>>
>>
>> On 09/08/2014 10:08 PM, Scott Castaline wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm no mention of feathers
>>>
>>> On 09/08/2014 01:59 PM, Beddingfield, Allen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Be sure it is a sufficiently scratchy rope :D
>>>> --
>>>> Allen Beddingfield
>>>> Systems Engineer
>>>> The University of Alabama
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Damon L.
>>>> Chesser [damon at damtek.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 12:46 PM
>>>> To: ale at ale.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not
>>>>
>>>> Shall I get a rope?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> who has the tar?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ale mailing list
>>>> Ale at ale.org
>>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Damon at damtek.com
>> 404-271-8699
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>
>


--
Sent from my Fedora Linux PC to you, NSA, the CIA, FBI, HSA and God only knows who else?!
Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-08 17:49:42 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 13:04 -0400, Evan Banyash wrote:
> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.

Hmmm... That might be worth checking out.

Of course, I'm still using Enlightement 16 for my WM. :-P

Regards,
Mike

> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
> > >
> > > Long live XFCE! :)
> > >
> >
> > And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
> > since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
> > how far systemd's tentacles reach.
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Sumners
> > http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
> >
> > "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> > personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
> > corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> > condition to which they are quickly addicted."
> >
> > Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> > CH:D 59
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> > http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/078abe4a/attachment.html
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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Paul Cartwright
2014-09-08 18:07:44 UTC
Permalink
On 09/08/2014 01:04 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> You guys do know XFCE is basically abandoned at this point, right? If you
> want something lightweight you should be using LXQT.
downloaded the lxqt-common..
rpm -i lxqt*.rpm
warning: lxqt-common-0.7.0-7.1.noarch.rpm: Header V3 DSA/SHA1 Signature,
key ID 5fd803b8: NOKEY
/var/tmp/rpm-tmp.IVzk2E: line 1: fg: no job control
warning: %post(lxqt-common-0.7.0-7.1.noarch) scriptlet failed, exit status 1

not sure what to do.. nothing in messages..

--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
Solomon Peachy
2014-09-08 19:34:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 12:59:47PM -0400, James Sumners wrote:
> And I agree with you. GNOME 2 was the last one I liked, but I had long
> since switched to XFCE. But GNOME is the poster child example for showing
> how far systemd's tentacles reach.

...as opposed to GNOME needing to continue maintaining per-distribution
(and per-distribution-release!) code to handle the complexity that
systemd completely abstracts away?

GNOME upstream supported Fedora and Debian's quirks, and Arch and
OpenSUSE sorta barely. Going forward, GNOME now supports *everything*
that implements the logind api, which, incidentally, includes all of the
above (and many more Linux distros, and if I believe news reports,
before much longer, OpenBSD too)

The systemd suite is basically bundle of shared library code accessible
via formalized, versioned DBus APIs. Everyone downstream no longer has
to continually reinvent the wheel (usually badly) to gain that
functionality.

In any other context folks would be lauding this as a big step forward.
Sheesh.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-08 17:48:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 12:45 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote:
> James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I would. As I said in my original reply in this thread -- you either adopt
> > systemd to run the newest versions of GNOME or you don't get GNOME. That's
> > why this BSD project exists, to add support for a system they do not want
> > just so they can continue to use a desktop manager. It is a completely
> > ludicrous situation that a specific system I it manager is required to use
> > a desktop environment.

> Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.

+1

The wheels fell off the GNOME train some time ago, IMNSHO.

I had a direct comparison of running Audacity under GNOME 3 on Fedora 18
as opposed to running it under XFCE on the same machine (old 32 bit Dell
but still a nice performer for what we use it for).

This was doing live stereo audio recordings. Same X, same kernel, same
everything else. Just logged in with an XFCE session and compared the
graphics performance of the Audacity GUI on that vs GNOME 3 (on which it
had been terrible). The comparison was appalling. The GNOME 3
performance was so abysmal it was border line unusable. XFCE was crisp
and clean and the wayform displays kept up to the audio stream nicely.

I've got several people on an audio tech team that have to use that
machine for doing recordings and editings. They're not (all) Linux
savants (one of our trainees is) and GNOME was unusable for them and
frustrating for me.

GNOME lost their way with GNOME 3.

> Long live XFCE! :)

+1

Only problem I've had with XFCE is in getting at some of the system
settings (things like sound settings).

> -derek

Regards,
Mike
--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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Damon L. Chesser
2014-09-08 17:55:54 UTC
Permalink
On 09/08/2014 01:48 PM, Michael H. Warfield wrote:

SNIP


> +1
>
> Only problem I've had with XFCE is in getting at some of the system
> settings (things like sound settings).
>
>> -derek
> Regards,
> Mike
Yeah, I agree. But is still the most usable DE/WM for my money. I
would pay double the amount they charge for it. I will look at lxqt.

--
Damon at damtek.com
404-271-8699
Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-08 17:59:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 13:48 -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 12:45 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote:
> > James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > I would. As I said in my original reply in this thread -- you either adopt
> > > systemd to run the newest versions of GNOME or you don't get GNOME. That's
> > > why this BSD project exists, to add support for a system they do not want
> > > just so they can continue to use a desktop manager. It is a completely
> > > ludicrous situation that a specific system I it manager is required to use
> > > a desktop environment.

> > Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.

> +1

> The wheels fell off the GNOME train some time ago, IMNSHO.

> I had a direct comparison of running Audacity under GNOME 3 on Fedora 18
> as opposed to running it under XFCE on the same machine (old 32 bit Dell
> but still a nice performer for what we use it for).

> This was doing live stereo audio recordings. Same X, same kernel, same
> everything else. Just logged in with an XFCE session and compared the
> graphics performance of the Audacity GUI on that vs GNOME 3 (on which it
> had been terrible). The comparison was appalling. The GNOME 3
> performance was so abysmal it was border line unusable. XFCE was crisp
> and clean and the wayform displays kept up to the audio stream nicely.

> I've got several people on an audio tech team that have to use that
> machine for doing recordings and editings. They're not (all) Linux
> savants (one of our trainees is) and GNOME was unusable for them and
> frustrating for me.

Oh, and I would LOVE to have someone explain to me WHY a desktop manager
would have such a profound performance impact on an application and
display that I would have thought would be spending most of it's time
talking with X through the widget sets. The mystery to me is why using
GNOME as the desktop manager should even matter to an application like
that, but it was and it was reproducible.

Regards,
Mike

> GNOME lost their way with GNOME 3.
>
> > Long live XFCE! :)
>
> +1
>
> Only problem I've had with XFCE is in getting at some of the system
> settings (things like sound settings).
>
> > -derek
>
> Regards,
> Mike

--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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Jim Kinney
2014-09-08 18:41:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at wittsend.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 13:48 -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 12:45 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote:
> > > James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > I would. As I said in my original reply in this thread -- you either
> adopt
> > > > systemd to run the newest versions of GNOME or you don't get GNOME.
> That's
> > > > why this BSD project exists, to add support for a system they do not
> want
> > > > just so they can continue to use a desktop manager. It is a
> completely
> > > > ludicrous situation that a specific system I it manager is required
> to use
> > > > a desktop environment.
>
> > > Personally I'd rather see GNOME die.
>
> > +1
>
> > The wheels fell off the GNOME train some time ago, IMNSHO.
>
> > I had a direct comparison of running Audacity under GNOME 3 on Fedora 18
> > as opposed to running it under XFCE on the same machine (old 32 bit Dell
> > but still a nice performer for what we use it for).
>
> > This was doing live stereo audio recordings. Same X, same kernel, same
> > everything else. Just logged in with an XFCE session and compared the
> > graphics performance of the Audacity GUI on that vs GNOME 3 (on which it
> > had been terrible). The comparison was appalling. The GNOME 3
> > performance was so abysmal it was border line unusable. XFCE was crisp
> > and clean and the wayform displays kept up to the audio stream nicely.
>
> > I've got several people on an audio tech team that have to use that
> > machine for doing recordings and editings. They're not (all) Linux
> > savants (one of our trainees is) and GNOME was unusable for them and
> > frustrating for me.
>
> Oh, and I would LOVE to have someone explain to me WHY a desktop manager
> would have such a profound performance impact on an application and
> display that I would have thought would be spending most of it's time
> talking with X through the widget sets. The mystery to me is why using
> GNOME as the desktop manager should even matter to an application like
> that, but it was and it was reproducible.
>

WHY? Bad design. HOW? The newly redesigned bonobo-replacement interconnect
tool is a virtual reed-switched power relay. It chunks a (tiny) wad of data
around then changes to the next desktop thing to do more. It can't thread
well or else it will connect to two ends of the needed pipe and setup both
as sender or receivers and then it goes into a spasm of tear-down/rebuild
to keep the data flowing. Thus the sound on certain gnome configurations is
beyond abysmal. And the rest of the performance follows it into the toilet.
Sad. Looks pretty but runs like a snail. Certain hardware combos are
particularly bad.

>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> > GNOME lost their way with GNOME 3.
> >
> > > Long live XFCE! :)
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Only problem I've had with XFCE is in getting at some of the system
> > settings (things like sound settings).
> >
> > > -derek
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike
>
> --
> Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
> /\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 |
> http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
> NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of
> all
> PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/d1d0ec4d/attachment.sig
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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James Sumners
2014-09-08 18:54:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:

> WHY? Bad design. HOW? The newly redesigned bonobo-replacement interconnect
> tool is a virtual reed-switched power relay. It chunks a (tiny) wad of data
> around then changes to the next desktop thing to do more. It can't thread
> well or else it will connect to two ends of the needed pipe and setup both
> as sender or receivers and then it goes into a spasm of tear-down/rebuild
> to keep the data flowing. Thus the sound on certain gnome configurations is
> beyond abysmal. And the rest of the performance follows it into the toilet.
> Sad. Looks pretty but runs like a snail. Certain hardware combos are
> particularly bad.
>

The exact problem the Enlightenment group solved before the would even
deign to consider an official release --
http://docs.enlightenment.org/auto/evas/evas_main.html


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Jim Kinney
2014-09-08 18:59:00 UTC
Permalink
E != Gnome :-(

E has a reputation for long devel cycles and really good stuff on release.
Gnome cranks out stuff ans usually hits date targets and often delivers
crap but occasionally hands over a jewel. I need to look at E again. Been a
long time.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:54 PM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > WHY? Bad design. HOW? The newly redesigned bonobo-replacement
> interconnect
> > tool is a virtual reed-switched power relay. It chunks a (tiny) wad of
> data
> > around then changes to the next desktop thing to do more. It can't thread
> > well or else it will connect to two ends of the needed pipe and setup
> both
> > as sender or receivers and then it goes into a spasm of tear-down/rebuild
> > to keep the data flowing. Thus the sound on certain gnome configurations
> is
> > beyond abysmal. And the rest of the performance follows it into the
> toilet.
> > Sad. Looks pretty but runs like a snail. Certain hardware combos are
> > particularly bad.
> >
>
> The exact problem the Enlightenment group solved before the would even
> deign to consider an official release --
> http://docs.enlightenment.org/auto/evas/evas_main.html
>
>
> --
> James Sumners
> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>
> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
> corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>
> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> CH:D 59
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20140908/0360c6a4/attachment.html
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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James Sumners
2014-09-08 19:04:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:

> E != Gnome :-(
>
> E has a reputation for long devel cycles and really good stuff on release.
> Gnome cranks out stuff ans usually hits date targets and often delivers
> crap but occasionally hands over a jewel. I need to look at E again. Been a
> long time.
>

Yep. And the only reason I switched to XFCE instead of (back to) E was down
to everything of any use was built on GTK+.


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-08 19:55:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 15:04 -0400, James Sumners wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > E != Gnome :-(
> >
> > E has a reputation for long devel cycles and really good stuff on release.
> > Gnome cranks out stuff ans usually hits date targets and often delivers
> > crap but occasionally hands over a jewel. I need to look at E again. Been a
> > long time.
> >

> Yep. And the only reason I switched to XFCE instead of (back to) E was down
> to everything of any use was built on GTK+.

Ah! But E is a window manager while XFCE is a desktop/session manager.
I run XFCE with E16 as my window manager. They're not at all
incompatible and not particularly hard to switch to.

Yes, you can run "pure E" as a desktop manager as well, but I do like
having the panels ala GNOME < 3 and XFCE, while E gives me all the
workspaces I want with as many viewports wide an high as I want while I
still run XFCE and it's panels.

Regards,
Mike
--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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Damon L. Chesser
2014-09-08 21:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Now, that sounds interesting.



On 09/08/2014 03:55 PM, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 15:04 -0400, James Sumners wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> E != Gnome :-(
>>>
>>> E has a reputation for long devel cycles and really good stuff on release.
>>> Gnome cranks out stuff ans usually hits date targets and often delivers
>>> crap but occasionally hands over a jewel. I need to look at E again. Been a
>>> long time.
>>>
>> Yep. And the only reason I switched to XFCE instead of (back to) E was down
>> to everything of any use was built on GTK+.
> Ah! But E is a window manager while XFCE is a desktop/session manager.
> I run XFCE with E16 as my window manager. They're not at all
> incompatible and not particularly hard to switch to.
>
> Yes, you can run "pure E" as a desktop manager as well, but I do like
> having the panels ala GNOME < 3 and XFCE, while E gives me all the
> workspaces I want with as many viewports wide an high as I want while I
> still run XFCE and it's panels.
>
> Regards,
> Mike

--
Damon at damtek.com
404-271-8699
James Sumners
2014-09-08 22:24:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at wittsend.com>
wrote:

> > Yep. And the only reason I switched to XFCE instead of (back to) E was
> down
> > to everything of any use was built on GTK+.
>
> Ah! But E is a window manager while XFCE is a desktop/session manager.
> I run XFCE with E16 as my window manager. They're not at all
> incompatible and not particularly hard to switch to.
>
> Yes, you can run "pure E" as a desktop manager as well, but I do like
> having the panels ala GNOME < 3 and XFCE, while E gives me all the
> workspaces I want with as many viewports wide an high as I want while I
> still run XFCE and it's panels.


E16 was merely a window manager (with extra features). E17 is more akin to
a full on desktop environment (ala GNOME or KDE).


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Solomon Peachy
2014-09-08 18:42:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 01:59:53PM -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> Oh, and I would LOVE to have someone explain to me WHY a desktop manager
> would have such a profound performance impact on an application and
> display that I would have thought would be spending most of it's time
> talking with X through the widget sets. The mystery to me is why using
> GNOME as the desktop manager should even matter to an application like
> that, but it was and it was reproducible.

Basically, GNOME3 is built on top of pure OpenGL, and if your system has
crummy GL capabilities, it ends up resorting to a software rendering
fallback that is quite slow (and CPU intensive)

One could make an argument that they could have provided a non-GL
fallback path, but that's another matter entirely.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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Jim Kinney
2014-09-08 18:48:36 UTC
Permalink
That explains why the NVidia macbook is just happy as a clam with gnome3
and the Acer POS-express with crappy video chip is a snail.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Solomon Peachy <pizza at shaftnet.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 01:59:53PM -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > Oh, and I would LOVE to have someone explain to me WHY a desktop manager
> > would have such a profound performance impact on an application and
> > display that I would have thought would be spending most of it's time
> > talking with X through the widget sets. The mystery to me is why using
> > GNOME as the desktop manager should even matter to an application like
> > that, but it was and it was reproducible.
>
> Basically, GNOME3 is built on top of pure OpenGL, and if your system has
> crummy GL capabilities, it ends up resorting to a software rendering
> fallback that is quite slow (and CPU intensive)
>
> One could make an argument that they could have provided a non-GL
> fallback path, but that's another matter entirely.
>
> - Solomon
> --
> Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
> Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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Michael H. Warfield
2014-09-08 20:16:22 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 14:42 -0400, Solomon Peachy wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 01:59:53PM -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > Oh, and I would LOVE to have someone explain to me WHY a desktop manager
> > would have such a profound performance impact on an application and
> > display that I would have thought would be spending most of it's time
> > talking with X through the widget sets. The mystery to me is why using
> > GNOME as the desktop manager should even matter to an application like
> > that, but it was and it was reproducible.

> Basically, GNOME3 is built on top of pure OpenGL, and if your system has
> crummy GL capabilities, it ends up resorting to a software rendering
> fallback that is quite slow (and CPU intensive)

Then why did XFCE on the same hardware scream? Are you saying that
OpenGL is the fault for the suckiness? This was the same machine. Same
audio stream and sources, same screen, just logged in with GNOME 3
session in one case and XFCE session in the other. Rocked with XFCE and
sucked with GNOME 3.

> One could make an argument that they could have provided a non-GL
> fallback path, but that's another matter entirely.

I don't know what XFCE is using but it's beating the pants off GNOME 3
in that environment.

> - Solomon

Regards,
Mike
--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!

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Jim Kinney
2014-09-08 20:41:38 UTC
Permalink
XFCE doesn't use anything from the OpenGL acceleration realm. So it can fly
compared to the opengl emulation software that gnome uses if the hardware
doesn't support real OpenGL hardware acceleration.

And, yes, OpenGL_was_ a Silicon Graphics thing that was sold to Microsoft.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Michael H. Warfield <mhw at wittsend.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, 2014-09-08 at 14:42 -0400, Solomon Peachy wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 01:59:53PM -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > > Oh, and I would LOVE to have someone explain to me WHY a desktop
> manager
> > > would have such a profound performance impact on an application and
> > > display that I would have thought would be spending most of it's time
> > > talking with X through the widget sets. The mystery to me is why using
> > > GNOME as the desktop manager should even matter to an application like
> > > that, but it was and it was reproducible.
>
> > Basically, GNOME3 is built on top of pure OpenGL, and if your system has
> > crummy GL capabilities, it ends up resorting to a software rendering
> > fallback that is quite slow (and CPU intensive)
>
> Then why did XFCE on the same hardware scream? Are you saying that
> OpenGL is the fault for the suckiness? This was the same machine. Same
> audio stream and sources, same screen, just logged in with GNOME 3
> session in one case and XFCE session in the other. Rocked with XFCE and
> sucked with GNOME 3.
>
> > One could make an argument that they could have provided a non-GL
> > fallback path, but that's another matter entirely.
>
> I don't know what XFCE is using but it's beating the pants off GNOME 3
> in that environment.
>
> > - Solomon
>
> Regards,
> Mike
> --
> Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 978-7061 | mhw at WittsEnd.com
> /\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 |
> http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
> NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of
> all
> PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!
>
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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Solomon Peachy
2014-09-08 20:50:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 04:16:22PM -0400, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> Then why did XFCE on the same hardware scream? Are you saying that
> OpenGL is the fault for the suckiness? This was the same machine. Same

XFCE doesn't use OpenGL to draw windows etc etc etc. It relies on the
"traditional" X 2D primitives (lines, fills, bitblt) that no longer
exist on modern graphics hardware, and have had to been implemented
internally by the various drivers in various stages of bugginess and
performances.

(The GLAMOR effort that natively runs 2D stuff via OpenGL is an attempt
to pull that crap out of the drivers and back into the main stack,
where it belongs, and coindicentally ends up being a lot faster..)

There's been a lot of behind-the-scenes progress in the graphics stack
over the past few years; basic infrastructure stuff is still progressing
by leaps and bounds, and yes, GNOME3 is a big driver and beneficiary of
that.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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JD
2014-09-08 22:39:18 UTC
Permalink
On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> Long live XFCE! :)

Long live fvwm!
Evan Banyash
2014-09-08 23:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
exists specifically to resurrect it!

https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:

> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> > Long live XFCE! :)
>
> Long live fvwm!
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
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Damon L. Chesser
2014-09-08 23:34:25 UTC
Permalink
On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
> exists specifically to resurrect it!

So. It IS ALIVE! Long live FVWM!
>
> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>> Long live fvwm!
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
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> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

--
Damon at damtek.com
404-271-8699
Pete Hardie
2014-09-09 00:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Its alive....its alive....ITS ALIVE!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VkrUG3OrPc

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:

>
> On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>
>> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
>> exists specifically to resurrect it!
>>
>
> So. It IS ALIVE! Long live FVWM!
>
>>
>> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>>
>>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>>>
>>> Long live fvwm!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ale mailing list
>>> Ale at ale.org
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>
> --
> Damon at damtek.com
> 404-271-8699
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
Pete Hardie
--------
Better Living Through Bitmaps
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JD
2014-09-09 00:45:16 UTC
Permalink
All these young whipper snappers with "DEs". Just don't need/want it. But I'm
not a barbarian running twm. ;)

Plus my ~/.fvwmrc file hasn't needed major updating in years! THAT is a big WIN
for me - and it works nicely in remote VMs, unlike many of the other options. ;)

On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
> exists specifically to resurrect it!
>
> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>
>> Long live fvwm!
>> _______________________________________________
Paul Cartwright
2014-09-09 14:31:28 UTC
Permalink
so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..

> All these young whipper snappers with "DEs". Just don't need/want it. But I'm
> not a barbarian running twm. ;)
>
> Plus my ~/.fvwmrc file hasn't needed major updating in years! THAT is a big WIN
> for me - and it works nicely in remote VMs, unlike many of the other options. ;)
>
> On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
>> exists specifically to resurrect it!
>>
>> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>> Long live fvwm!
>>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
Beddingfield, Allen
2014-09-09 14:34:59 UTC
Permalink
I've tried a few times over the years, and there is just so much that is not available. The last time I checked, there was no Flash player option, and as far as I know, there is no chrome/pepper flash in the BSD world.
Allen B.
--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
The University of Alabama

________________________________________
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Paul Cartwright [pbcartwright at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 9:31 AM
To: ale at ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not- *BSD

so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..

> All these young whipper snappers with "DEs". Just don't need/want it. But I'm
> not a barbarian running twm. ;)
>
> Plus my ~/.fvwmrc file hasn't needed major updating in years! THAT is a big WIN
> for me - and it works nicely in remote VMs, unlike many of the other options. ;)
>
> On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
>> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
>> exists specifically to resurrect it!
>>
>> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>>> Long live XFCE! :)
>>> Long live fvwm!
>>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587



_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
leam hall
2014-09-09 14:36:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Paul Cartwright <pbcartwright at gmail.com> wrote:
> so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
> I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
> rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..

The more I see how Linux is going the more BSD appeals. I used to run
NetBSD as a desktop. Of course I was using also Mutt, I think.

--
Mind on a Mission
Paul Cartwright
2014-09-09 15:28:21 UTC
Permalink
On 09/09/2014 10:36 AM, leam hall wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Paul Cartwright <pbcartwright at gmail.com> wrote:
>> so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
>> I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
>> rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..
> The more I see how Linux is going the more BSD appeals. I used to run
> NetBSD as a desktop. Of course I was using also Mutt, I think.
>
well back in the day I also used mailx, pine... and no graphical
interface, on a UNIX system, but.... I really like chrome & thunderbird..

--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
Jim Kinney
2014-09-09 14:37:47 UTC
Permalink
a zillion years ago I tried E??. It took a month of Sundays to build and
then I had to configure every single thing manually. It was pretty to look
at and quite fast to use but the setup was a pain.

Haven't done a *BSD in a very long time (10 years?).

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Paul Cartwright <pbcartwright at gmail.com>
wrote:

> so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
> I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
> rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..
>
> > All these young whipper snappers with "DEs". Just don't need/want it.
> But I'm
> > not a barbarian running twm. ;)
> >
> > Plus my ~/.fvwmrc file hasn't needed major updating in years! THAT is a
> big WIN
> > for me - and it works nicely in remote VMs, unlike many of the other
> options. ;)
> >
> > On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> >> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a project
> >> exists specifically to resurrect it!
> >>
> >> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> >>>> Long live XFCE! :)
> >>> Long live fvwm!
> >>> _______________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Cartwright
> Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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Dylan Northrup
2014-09-09 15:29:50 UTC
Permalink
My OS X box works pretty nicely with its BSD foundations :-)


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:

> a zillion years ago I tried E??. It took a month of Sundays to build and
> then I had to configure every single thing manually. It was pretty to look
> at and quite fast to use but the setup was a pain.
>
> Haven't done a *BSD in a very long time (10 years?).
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Paul Cartwright <pbcartwright at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
> > I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
> > rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..
> >
> > > All these young whipper snappers with "DEs". Just don't need/want it.
> > But I'm
> > > not a barbarian running twm. ;)
> > >
> > > Plus my ~/.fvwmrc file hasn't needed major updating in years! THAT is a
> > big WIN
> > > for me - and it works nicely in remote VMs, unlike many of the other
> > options. ;)
> > >
> > > On 09/08/2014 07:02 PM, Evan Banyash wrote:
> > >> Okay, FVWM is definitely dead. I know that for certain because a
> project
> > >> exists specifically to resurrect it!
> > >>
> > >> https://github.com/ThomasAdam/mvwm
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:39 PM, JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 09/08/2014 12:45 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> > >>>> Long live XFCE! :)
> > >>> Long live fvwm!
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ale mailing list
> > > Ale at ale.org
> > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Cartwright
> > Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> James P. Kinney III
>
> Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
> at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
> It won't fatten the dog.
> - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
>
>
> *http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> <http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
Dylan Northrup
"Adversity is just change we haven't adapted ourselves to yet."
- Aimee Mullins
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Paul Cartwright
2014-09-09 15:33:08 UTC
Permalink
On 09/09/2014 10:37 AM, Jim Kinney wrote:
> a zillion years ago I tried E??. It took a month of Sundays to build
> and then I had to configure every single thing manually. It was pretty
> to look at and quite fast to use but the setup was a pain.
>
> Haven't done a *BSD in a very long time (10 years?).
>
I was also reading something about a split for linux OSes, one for
desktop, the other for server.. I think *BSD falls under the server
category.. really not even close to ready for prime time desktop.. I
joined a BSD mailing list once, asked a newbie question. got slapped
around pretty bad & told to read the numerous man pages.. blew that away
& reinstalled linux.

as a user, I'm not sure I have an opinion of systemd. nothing about it
showed up in my installation ( fedora 20 amd_64) and things just work.
as an administrator, changing something I used for 20 years is always a
challenge.

--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
Beddingfield, Allen
2014-09-09 15:37:05 UTC
Permalink
I saw that article about a "split" yesterday on Slashdot, and it left me scratching my head....
SUSE has already done this with SUSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) and SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED). Ubuntu has also done this with their separate server release (or at least there used to be one available - I assume there still is). Red Hat used to do this, but they haven't had a purely desktop release in some years...
Allen B.
--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
The University of Alabama

________________________________________
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Paul Cartwright [pbcartwright at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 10:33 AM
To: Jim Kinney; Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not- *BSD


I was also reading something about a split for linux OSes, one for
desktop, the other for server.. I think *BSD falls under the server
category.. really not even close to ready for prime time desktop.. I
joined a BSD mailing list once, asked a newbie question. got slapped
around pretty bad & told to read the numerous man pages.. blew that away
& reinstalled linux.

as a user, I'm not sure I have an opinion of systemd. nothing about it
showed up in my installation ( fedora 20 amd_64) and things just work.
as an administrator, changing something I used for 20 years is always a
challenge.

--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
Paul Cartwright
2014-09-09 15:59:09 UTC
Permalink
On 09/09/2014 11:37 AM, Beddingfield, Allen wrote:
> I saw that article about a "split" yesterday on Slashdot, and it left me scratching my head....
> SUSE has already done this with SUSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) and SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED). Ubuntu has also done this with their separate server release (or at least there used to be one available - I assume there still is). Red Hat used to do this, but they haven't had a purely desktop release in some years...
> Allen B.
SuSe was my first desktop linux OS.. is not openSuSe the "home" desktop
OS?? SLED being work ?? sorta like red hat/CentOS/Fedora ?

I used to have so many issues with SuSe.. mostly video related..
everytime I updated a kernel & rebooted, It brought me to a # prompt..
no startx..


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
Beddingfield, Allen
2014-09-09 16:25:12 UTC
Permalink
SLES is the commercial server version, while SLED is the desktop version (built on the same base, but with more desktop oriented packages, and less server oriented packages. openSUSE is the upstream. It is roughly to SLES/SLED what Fedora is to Red Hat.
Allen B.
--
Allen Beddingfield
Systems Engineer
The University of Alabama

________________________________________
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [ale-bounces at ale.org] on behalf of Paul Cartwright [pbcartwright at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 10:59 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] systemd or not- *BSD


SuSe was my first desktop linux OS.. is not openSuSe the "home" desktop
OS?? SLED being work ?? sorta like red hat/CentOS/Fedora ?

I used to have so many issues with SuSe.. mostly video related..
everytime I updated a kernel & rebooted, It brought me to a # prompt..
no startx..


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
James Taylor
2014-09-09 16:25:35 UTC
Permalink
I've been using openSUSE and it's precursors for nearly fifteen years.
Other than a few hiccups here and there, it has been install and forget.
I've supported SLES for about the same time period.
I've never been a fan of the SLED concept. Too limited and too behind.
I recognize the need for a stable base for business, but SLED's application choices are too limited and almost always too out of date to be usable for me.
-jt


James Taylor
678-697-9420
james.taylor at eastcobbgroup.com



>>> Paul Cartwright <pbcartwright at gmail.com> 9/9/2014 11:59 AM >>>
On 09/09/2014 11:37 AM, Beddingfield, Allen wrote:
> I saw that article about a "split" yesterday on Slashdot, and it left me scratching my head....
> SUSE has already done this with SUSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) and SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED). Ubuntu has also done this with their separate server release (or at least there used to be one available - I assume there still is). Red Hat used to do this, but they haven't had a purely desktop release in some years...
> Allen B.
SuSe was my first desktop linux OS.. is not openSuSe the "home" desktop
OS?? SLED being work ?? sorta like red hat/CentOS/Fedora ?

I used to have so many issues with SuSe.. mostly video related..
everytime I updated a kernel & rebooted, It brought me to a # prompt..
no startx..


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo


If this is an unsolicited spam message, please click this link to report it: http://control.eastcobbgroup.com:49285/contents/spamreport.shtml?rptid=56778&srvid=16vl15t
Preston
2014-09-09 19:05:48 UTC
Permalink
On 9/9/2014 9:31 AM, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> so, does anyone use *BSD for a desktop system?? free/Open..
> I used to use E16 back in Windows dayz, last time I tried E17 I had to
> rebuild my linux OS... it was ugly..
PC-BSD is pretty good.

http://www.pcbsd.org/

Preston

--
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don?t matter and those who matter don?t mind.
-Dr. Seuss
Jim Kinney
2014-09-05 14:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Every time "things change" in a major way, there's much wailing and
gnashing of teeth. Some people still use systems that have no package
manager. Some are still using kernel 2.1.x series. Linux users are lucky in
that they do have choices. Why are all of the major distros jumping on
systemd? Because it solves a host of issues with all the prior ways. Unlike
the techweek grumbler, there is no binary database of proprietary
configurations parameters, i.e. a Windows-style registry. There are the
usual text files, linked in an initially confusing manner but is actually
self-sufficiently logical once studied objectively.


I am by no means proficient at it but I use it daily. Some new commands are
needed, chiefly systemctl, but it makes things better. Much better. I had
an issue with NFS on a CentOS7 server. Thanks to systemctl status I was
able to see quickly that the port 2049 it needed to attach to for NFSv4 was
already in use (from a prior run that broke due to fat fingering). Just
having the last several lines of the log show up on a status run is
fantastic.

+1 for systemd.


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Michael Trausch <mike at trausch.us> wrote:

> Will explain later---but you WANT systemd. Really. It's much, MUCH more
> efficient. And allows you to have a 4 package system, essentially. And
> makes a lot of sense to work with once you get to know it well.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Sep 5, 2014, at 8:30 AM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I stopped using Arch Linux because they forced systemd on us (me). I'm
> > thoroughly disappointed that the next release of Debian is also forcing a
> > move to it. But, really, they don't have an option:
> >
> > "In November 2012, the GNOME Project concluded that basic GNOME
> > functionality should not rely on systemd.[16]
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#cite_note-16> However, in
> > contradiction of this statement, GNOME 3.8 introduced a *de facto*
> dependency
> > on systemd by introducing session management behaviors which depend on
> how
> > systemd operates. While the developers of Gentoo Linux
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux>attempted to adapt these
> changes
> > in OpenRC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRC>, the implementation
> > contained too many bugs, causing the distribution to mark systemd as a
> > dependency of GNOME." --
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#GNOME_integration
> >
> > So, a distribution either _doesn't_ include GNOME (no loss in my opinion,
> > but people do like it), or it includes GNOME at the cost of also having
> to
> > include systemd.
> >
> > What it comes down to is the developers of systemd. This package is
> brought
> > to you by the same person who gave us the wonderfully useless and awful
> > Pulse Audio system. And his cohorts routinely draw the ire of others:
> >
> > https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 (whole thing is worth
> > reading for much enlightenment)
> >
> > So, we have a project run by people who like to force their software onto
> > others by getting it included as a non-optional dependency who then go on
> > to not give a damn about what their bugs break or whom they affect. Now,
> > they want to take over the whole damn system --
> >
> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
> >
> > I agree with the "systemd is a trojan" statement. I very much agree with
> it.
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
> >> -------------- next part --------------
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> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ale mailing list
> >> Ale at ale.org
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Sumners
> > http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
> >
> > "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
> > personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to
> the
> > corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
> > condition to which they are quickly addicted."
> >
> > Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
> > CH:D 59
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
--
James P. Kinney III

Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain
at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail.
It won't fatten the dog.
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain


*http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
<http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/>*
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David Tomaschik
2014-09-05 16:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Is there anywhere that actually provides a coherent technical argument for
why systemd is bad? So far the complaints I've found online are "I'll need
to learn something new", "it's bloated" (ok, true, but so is so much of our
software these days), and "don't fix what isn't broken." (Except, to some
people, the status quo is broken.)


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 4:55 AM, Boris Borisov <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/80980.html
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> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
David Tomaschik
OpenPGP: 0x5DEA789B
http://systemoverlord.com
david at systemoverlord.com
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leam hall
2014-09-05 18:03:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:23 PM, David Tomaschik
<david at systemoverlord.com> wrote:
> Is there anywhere that actually provides a coherent technical argument for
> why systemd is bad? So far the complaints I've found online are "I'll need
> to learn something new", "it's bloated" (ok, true, but so is so much of our
> software these days), and "don't fix what isn't broken." (Except, to some
> people, the status quo is broken.)

David, how many important discussions are purely technical? It's not
that the idea of a better application stack init system is wrong. The
issue is that working system admins have a lot on their plates and
little time to learn new toys that only work on a portion of their
machines.

That, and having "pulse audio" on a resume does not inspire me to
one's technical skills.

Leam
--
Mind on a Mission
David Tomaschik
2014-09-05 19:57:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:03 AM, leam hall <leamhall at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:23 PM, David Tomaschik
> <david at systemoverlord.com> wrote:
> > Is there anywhere that actually provides a coherent technical argument
> for
> > why systemd is bad? So far the complaints I've found online are "I'll
> need
> > to learn something new", "it's bloated" (ok, true, but so is so much of
> our
> > software these days), and "don't fix what isn't broken." (Except, to
> some
> > people, the status quo is broken.)
>
> David, how many important discussions are purely technical? It's not
> that the idea of a better application stack init system is wrong. The
> issue is that working system admins have a lot on their plates and
> little time to learn new toys that only work on a portion of their
> machines.
>

That's an argument for standardization of your fleet of machines, not an
argument against new technologies. I'm not arguing for systemd, I just
can't seem to find a decent *technical* comparison of them.


>
> That, and having "pulse audio" on a resume does not inspire me to
> one's technical skills.
>
> Leam
> --
> Mind on a Mission
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>



--
David Tomaschik
OpenPGP: 0x5DEA789B
http://systemoverlord.com
david at systemoverlord.com
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Michael B. Trausch
2014-09-06 18:26:30 UTC
Permalink
On 09/05/2014 12:23 PM, David Tomaschik wrote:
> Is there anywhere that actually provides a coherent technical argument for
> why systemd is bad? So far the complaints I've found online are "I'll need
> to learn something new", "it's bloated" (ok, true, but so is so much of our
> software these days), and "don't fix what isn't broken." (Except, to some
> people, the status quo is broken.)

The best I've seen is Debian's analysis:

https://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/docs/systemd-dependencies.html

That covers systemd 204; we're up to 216 now, but as the README shows
(and as can be confirmed as indicated in my previous post), systemd
really only needs 4 dependencies, so a complete, working, barebones
Linux command-line system (with just the root user) is possible in 5
packages.

Want multiple users? OK, add PAM. Rebuild systemd and busybox. Done.

Not bad at all. Want to bootstrap a distribution yourself because you
need something TINY? Systemd becomes your best friend. Especially on
"semiembeddeds" like the R?.

? Mike
Paul Cartwright
2014-09-09 14:35:05 UTC
Permalink
On 09/06/2014 02:26 PM, Michael B. Trausch wrote:
> On 09/05/2014 12:23 PM, David Tomaschik wrote:
>> Is there anywhere that actually provides a coherent technical
>> argument for
>> why systemd is bad? So far the complaints I've found online are
>> "I'll need
>> to learn something new", "it's bloated" (ok, true, but so is so much
>> of our
>> software these days), and "don't fix what isn't broken." (Except, to
>> some
>> people, the status quo is broken.)
>
> The best I've seen is Debian's analysis:
>
> https://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/docs/systemd-dependencies.html
>
> That covers systemd 204; we're up to 216 now, but as the README shows
> (and as can be confirmed as indicated in my previous post), systemd
> really only needs 4 dependencies, so a complete, working, barebones
> Linux command-line system (with just the root user) is possible in 5
> packages.
>
> Want multiple users? OK, add PAM. Rebuild systemd and busybox. Done.
>
> Not bad at all. Want to bootstrap a distribution yourself because you
> need something TINY? Systemd becomes your best friend. Especially on
> "semiembeddeds" like the R?.
>
found this on the fedora list, where they are also hashing out systemd...

http://boycottsystemd.org/

as I asked before, who runs *BSD, or is it even worth looking for a desktop system that doesn't run systemd..


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
James Sumners
2014-09-09 14:52:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Paul Cartwright <pbcartwright at gmail.com>
wrote:

> found this on the fedora list, where they are also hashing out systemd...
>
> http://boycottsystemd.org/
>

All of that is awesome. But point #10 says exactly what I've been saying
this whole thread, just in better words:

"10. systemd's complicated nature makes it harder to extend and step
outside its boundaries. While you can more or less trivially start shell
scripts from unit files, it's more difficult to write behavior that goes
outside the box, what with all the feature bloat. Many users will likely
need to write more complicated programs that directly interact with the
systemd API, or even patch systemd directly. One also needs to worry about
a much higher multitude of code paths and behaviors in a system-critical
program, including the possibility of systemd not synchronizing with the
message bus queue on boot, and thus freezing. This is as opposed to a
conventional init, which is deterministic and predictable in nature, mostly
just execing scripts."

i.e. it gets in the way.


>
> as I asked before, who runs *BSD, or is it even worth looking for a
> desktop system that doesn't run systemd..
>

Technically, I use a *BSD system that doesn't use systemd, but it does use
something just as annoying -- launchd. If I were to switch back to using
FOSS for my daily desktop needs (it's possible), I'd give FreeBSD or
OpenBSD a chance.


--
James Sumners
http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological
personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the
corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a
condition to which they are quickly addicted."

Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
CH:D 59
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Solomon Peachy
2014-09-09 15:52:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 10:52:34AM -0400, James Sumners wrote:
> This is as opposed to a conventional init, which is deterministic and
> predictable in nature, mostly just execing scripts."

I'm sorry, "deterministic and predictible" and "just executing scripts"
do not belong in the same sentance.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Delray Beach, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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